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Permalink Reply by Gerard Cappa on August 24, 2013 at 4:15am

Fran

I'm not an expert on the whole heraldry thing but I suspect that there is sometimes the temptation to configure ancient circumstances to suit current needs (this applies to attitudes to history right across the spectrum). The British Israelite movement of the the 19th century (which inspired the search at Tara) seems to have been as much about ideology as religion (and certainly more than archaeology), see this quote from 'The Lost Tribes of Israel:The History of a Myth' by  Parfitt, 2003 -  "idea of British Israelism was inspired by numerous ideological factors, such as the desire for ordinary people to have a glorious ancestral past, pride in the British Empire, and the belief in the racial superiority of white Anglo-Saxon Protestants".

As for the 'Ulster' flag, there are two competing models at present.

One is the red hand on a yellow (saffron) background with a red cross. This is the Ulster flag that nationalists/republicans might rally around (if they were inclined to rally).

The other one shares the red hand and red cross but has a white background, a six pointed white star wherein the red hand is located, and displays a crown above the red hand. The six pointed star, apparently, signifies the six counties of 'Northern Ireland' - the other three Ulster counties that were not incorporated in to NI at the time of partition are not included.

No doubt somebody has drawn on ancient heraldic motifs, but the 'Ulster' flag with the crown only had official recognition as the 'Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland' between 1953 and 1973. The old Stormont regime was prorogued in 1972 and finally abolished in 1973.

It is a very common mistake to portray the 'crown' flag as still being the official flag, and it is often used by sporting bodies on international duty (see the flag symbol used by TV companies against the names of R McIlroy et al the next time they feature). This 'crown' flag is prohibited from being flown at any government/crown estate building in NI, as is any flag other than the British Union flag (local councils are not 'crown' buildings so can fly anything they feel like).

Permalink Reply by The Last Torch on August 24, 2013 at 5:49am

Thanks for that. This is the English yes? I'm not sure what they would gain be calling themselves Jewish. Let's face it, we are all related when you go back far enough. How could they be Jewish and want WHITE racial superiority?  Isn't that what Hitler believed in? That seems strange. And this story involves a Egyptian princess or two and I don't think they were white. The lost tribes were also said  to travel into Africa and Asia. 

Permalink Reply by The Last Torch on August 24, 2013 at 5:56am

Thanks for the reply. I am endlessly fascinated with this stuff.

Permalink Reply by The Last Torch on August 24, 2013 at 6:17am

I don't think of this theory/myth/history as being a negative. I think of it as being a uniting force for only good things. Obviously people can distort knowledge to gain power, but to me this says that in a spiritual and physical sense we are all one family. The Ethiopians for example also claim this heritage. I also heard that much of ancient Irish stories have been  given the title of "myths" for the sole purpose of lessening their importance. 

Permalink Reply by The Last Torch on August 24, 2013 at 6:51am

Just one more thing.. The harp.  Believed to have been brought to Ireland in Pre-Christian times from Egypt by the Phonecians. 

Permalink Reply by mickey mcadden on August 27, 2013 at 12:15pm

You are correct in this emblem, however it was colored blue not green and it was / still is, the emblem of the Irish Nation ( all of Ireland ). It began it's life when Ireland was known as Scotia. You may notice on the British coats of arms the presence of this emblem, harp on blue background. IOW the House Of Windsor retains, with good reason, the emblem of the Irish NATION  in it's regalia.

Also would like to, again, rebut the kook theory that the Irish are exclusively Gaelic!

Mr Cappa, here seems indulged in some old wives tale about it , above,  that found its way into print.

But this tale is correct with respect to the Irish Gaelic tribes, they are not directly racially connected to the Israelites. Nevertheless those who were in Ireland when the Gaelic tribes arrived are.

No more is needed today than a DNA test.

I am saddened that I should again confront the racist and anti-Irish mentality I find here.

Yes you have a right to promote your version of Irish history, but no! you do not have the right, as foreigners to Ireland!, to lie about my country, to belittle and abuse those who like myself that are proud to be British because and only because we were born in Ireland, and mislead innocent inquiry from the diaspora into the false and shameful culture such as proxie Gaelic identity creates.

It is a sham, a scab on an old wound upon a body from which the soul is already long gone!

We are an English speaking nation today, we are a racially diverse nation today, and we are no longer ready to swallow hook line and sinker the Dr. Douglas  Hyde inspired nightmare that Devilera built, and subsequent Fianna Fail governments continued for over half a century.

To give the Irish diaspora reader some idea of just how corrupt and criminal Devilera was here is a cameo of an earlly Air Lingus pilots life.

Got into the training program by bribes and knowing a few words of Gaelic. Began working in Dublin, got married in Dublin. Flew transatlantic route. Move to the US and starts family. Has.even by US standards, large home and land in the US South. Continues to live US most of life.

During the same time this McBallygobackwards clown was spending Irish tax payers hard earned wealth, they at home could not afford to travel by air, never mind live in the USA. Many of them could only dream of a trip across the atlantic, and if they made that trip they would then have to pay off the Irish mafia in New York and Washington - to the O Dowd clan - for permission to enter the USA.

That's how bad it was and we today in the USA are still coping with these primitive descendents of the Gaelic Irish. Not a one of them has here ever come to much. And while I am on this topic I see among the population of another nation, whose language I speak and culture I enjoy, the very same thing. The descendents of Irish Gaelic thuggery becoming nuisance  to the more intelligent and educated Irish that got there on their own money not that stolen from Ireland by the Devilera banana republic.

Permalink Reply by Bit Devine on August 27, 2013 at 12:38pm

THe Harp,it is purported, was brought by the Phoenicians as a trade good. Similar versions can be found throughout the Mediterranean basin and into Northern Europe. It can also be found around coastal Africa and up to the Island of Madagascar. There is also much speculative theory that the Harp made its way into Europe during Indo-European migrations from Southwest Asia. As Ireland was by no means an isolated outpost, it would make sense that they woiuld be on a trade route and barter with tradesmen of other cultures.

The earliest surviving harps from Scotland and Ireland date to around the 15th century. The Harp used as the National symbol of Ireland is copied from one of our National treasures, the Trinity College Harp.

 

The harp as a folk and court instrument was suppressed to prevent a resurgence of nationalism in the 1600s during English rule. Harps were burnt and harpers executed.

Permalink Reply by mickey mcadden on August 27, 2013 at 12:50pm

Phoenician is a derivative of Hebrew.

Other interesting point, you might like to research Egyptian contemporary accounts for actual pictures of Phoenician musical instruments. I have seen many of these, but I have never seen this particular configuration. See also Greek relief work of the golden era of Greece, 400-200 BC.

Permalink Reply by The Last Torch on August 27, 2013 at 7:03pm

Cool! Thank You. 

Permalink Reply by mickey mcadden on August 27, 2013 at 11:14pm

Here is a kind of kookie account

http://www.british-israel.ca/Dan.htm

of some of the history that is not written about the pre Celtic era of Europe and Ireland. Lots of things in this account are embellished variations of objective scholarship, so you might take a lot of it with a pinch of salt. Nevetheless much of it is now fact due to DNA research and re-evaluation of the relics left us by the pre Celtic societies of western Europe. That is  Mycenian monuments in Greece can be seen in the same way as those found in Britain, especially the similar stone carvings.

Permalink Reply by The Last Torch on August 28, 2013 at 2:15am

interesting... I also found this --> 

The Milesians were a group of people who: "In old manuscripts of Ireland, the Milesians and the Danaans were of the same race. They came in batches from Greece and Phoenicia" (Dan, The Pio­neer of Israel, J.C. Gawler, p.30). The Milesians were Danites as one author writes: "...the original Greeks of antiquity...were Israelites, mostly of the tribe of Dan. The Archeans, Argosians, Athenians...Milesians, Mycenians...and Spartans" (Your Inheritance, p.36). Notice in the list that the Milesians are included!

These Milesians '...were among the first inhabitants of IRELAND, and the progenitor of its DY­NASTY OF KINGS" (Brian Williams, Britain's Royal Throne, p.65). These Milesians that went up to Ireland were the ones who "...founded the cities of Troy and Athens, and became the pioneers of the Milesian civilization" (ibid, p.65). According to history, the Milesians from Greece went to Ireland in 1000 B.C. But before these Milesian Israelites went to Greece, they actually originated in the land of Egypt.

The Dynasty of kings of the Milesians can be traced back to Zarah, the son of Judah of the scarlet thread! These people went into Egypt with Jacob in Joseph's time, and then headed towards Greece to start the Milesian civilization!

According to History, the Milesians from Greece went to Ireland in 1000 B.C. There were three waves of immigrants to Ireland. The third and latest group was from Phoenicia, the second group was the Milesians from Greece, and the first group to arrive in Ireland were the people called the TUATHA DE DANAANS IN 1200 B.C.

When the Milesians were in Greece Gawler writes that , "[they] were the same race as the Dannans...the people conversed in the same language..." (Dan The pioneer of Israel, p.31). Now the Milesians were the Israelites of the tribe of Dan and Judah that left Egypt with their leader Calcol, the son of Zarah was we have proved. But where did the Tuatha de Dannan come from? 

--http://www.discoveringislam.org/israelites.htm