Comment by Geraldine Callaghan on January 24, 2014 at 6:22pm

It has long been a real sore spot with me when I see and hear derogatory Irish jokes. This time of year they come out with a vengeance. I don't understand how we/us Irish allow it to continue. I have boycotted retail stores that sells insulting items, wrote letters to various papers and organizations all in vain. If I were a Black, Hispanic or Middle Eastern resident and these kind of jokes, mocking and insults were hurled at me I would be able to go to the media, newspapers or civic organizers and lodge a complaint. It would create "Ri-Ra and Rula Buaile", apologies would be demanded, Not if it's the Irish that are on the receiving end, it's a non issue. Does anyone remember just a year or two ago when Mayor Blumberg was being honored by Irish Central Magazine. As he was addressing the audience for the honor they were bestowing on him, (undeservedly in my opinion) he said, " oh I remember many times past watching the drunken Irish hanging out the windows watching the parade". This may not be his exact words but we all got the insult and slight. He was called on it and did apologize in a reluctant kind of way. It was gladly accepted by Niall O'Dowd, the editor of Irish America Magazine and many other Irish. It's the acceptance of this kind of insulting behavior that makes the Irish easy prey! A few months later Rhonan Tynan, one of the original Irish Tenors was in an elevator with others, during the course of conversation as to who resided in the apartment house,he said jokingly "as long as your not Jewish you can live here" well the nightly news repeated it over and over, the newspapers gave it front page coverage. He tried to explain the innocence of the remark, was he given a pass, NO!, of course not. He was fired from singing the National Anthem at the Yankee Games, all sorts of threats were made against him. He left New York, the city he loved and moved to Boston. Out History and culture is the finest there is. We are known for our Poets, our Writers, our wonderful music, storytelling and folklore. We brought ourselves up out of poverty by hard work, resilience and faith. There were no social handouts, just sheer perseverance. I am proud of my fine Heritage, yes, I abhor the ugly stereotypes.

Comment by Kevin on January 24, 2014 at 6:28pm

For someone who lives in Ireland I can't believe some would find it acceptable to describe the Irish as "brawling drunkards." It's akin to describe Mexicans as lazy, Scottish as mean, Blacks/African Americans as unable to work, Chinese as all extreme gamblers or Californians as people to be the first to re-cork a wine bottle after one glass.

One thing the Irish are generally good at is socialising.....whether it be after a few pint or a cup of coffee/tea.

Comment by Michael Quane on January 24, 2014 at 7:39pm

The AOH did a service by calling for the Christmas Tree Shops to eliminate their St. Patrick's Day "variety" items that portrayed the Irish as just drunken bozos. Christmas Tree Shops agreed to recall the items from their stores. We should tell the management in the comments section of their website that they made the right decision. both ethically and financially.

Comment by John W. Hurley on January 24, 2014 at 7:42pm

This is a really interesting discussion. I feel that one of the problems is that there are several issues being thrown together. So yes, some of the Irish do like to drink but not as much as most other nations - the Brits especially. The brawling though is a realistic picture from the past when the Irish engaged in Faction Fighting as a kind of very violent sport. This in training tended in turn to make the Irish great soldiers because at times he hand to hand fighting they engaged in wasn't half as bad as the Faction Fights they'd already been in. Clearly, the Irish are not stupid however, like any people whose culture is non-English in origin, they are going to have their own but consistent inner logic thought process. But again that's no different from any other non-English group in relation to English speaking popular culture. But the most confusing aspect of all this is that the generation who survived the Great Hunger, when they escaped to America, were doubly burdened. On the one hand they probably wanted to forget Ireland but on the other they also wanted to remember it. In addition they wanted to laugh and enjoy life. The result was the Irish-American dance hall culture in which the Irish often joked about themselves but in a way that was often lost on a non-Irish audience that today would probably be equally as lost on an Irish born audience. To make a comparison, that old Irish culture (which again centered around the Factions) was a lot like modern Black culture where say a singer brags about how he is the best fighter, the best lover, the king of everything, but both he and his audience know that's all a bluff. The entertainment comes from how good a liar he is, how outrageous his exaggerations are and how well he crafts his words. The last, unfortunate remnants of this whole culture is the modern "who can create the most outrageous Irish insults" culture. I've covered some of this in my book "Shillelagh: The Irish Fighting Stick" and in two articles for the Wild Geese Today.

Unfortunately, I don't think the situation is going to change any time soon because as always there is no unity. There really seems to no longer be a single Irish culture, but a number of splintered Irish identities which seem at odds with each other. In my experience, people raised in the Irish states' Revisionist Ireland seem to have a particular elitist ire towards that number of cultures which call themselves "Irish" around the world, especially the various Irish American cultures. So if on the one hand Americans born of Irish ancestry try to fight the stupid drunken brawler stereotype in pop culture, it seems that instead of solidarity, the only thanks they can expect in return is to be called "Plastic Paddies" behind their backs.

Comment by Sarah Churchill on January 24, 2014 at 9:23pm

Hi everyone! I am by no means an expert on post-colonial theory, however, I am an art historian who specializes in the history of Irish art. In fact, I recently addressed a very similar topic in my blog at theirisharthistorian.com.

Prior to the turn of the twentieth century, the Irish were often depicted in one of three states, drinking, dancing or fighting. This was more or less the product of "pictorial colonization" whereby the image serves to maintain the status of the Irish as 2nd class citizens, thereby legitimizing the role of the British as a superior or dominant culture. The Celtic Revival and the foundation of the Gaelic League in 1893 went a long, long way towards mitigating this effect during the founding of the Free State.

However, those who emigrated in the wake of the Great Hunger of 1845-1849 were, on the whole, unskilled and impoverished. (And not too mention traumatized by the horrors of famine, disease, etc.) Negative stereotypes persisted in the new world and rampant racism and xenophobia resulted in the Irish still being seen and depicted as unwanted "others." In fact, at about the same time of the American Civil War, the Irish found themselves at the bottom of the immigrant social hierarchy, just above freed slaves.

The problem with the persistence of these stereotypes of "fighting, drinking Irish" is that they make light of a very serious problem of substance abuse. There are many who view the rampant alcoholism among the Irish as one of the unfortunate legacies of the famine years, and in fact, of colonialism in general. (Consider the plight of the Native Americans - the situations are in fact very parallel.) We generally don't recognize these depictions as "negative stereotypes" because the Irish are "white." The stereotype is harder to see. And because our culture currently glorifies gratuitous partying.

Comment by Saralinda Larson on January 24, 2014 at 11:07pm

I admit that I like Irish whiskey and will occasionally have a Guinness, but yes, I am mildly offended by the stereotype Irish drinker. There is so much more to being Irish! Most of the time, I just ignore it, but around St. Patrick's Day, it becomes more than annoying. It is hard to find a greeting card suitable for my grandkids. But seriously, one does not have to be Irish to have a "problem" with drinking.

Comment by Ryan O'Rourke on January 25, 2014 at 2:51am

Such great discussion here.  Thanks to everyone who has "weighed in" so far.  

Comment by Mary Collins Dolan on January 25, 2014 at 3:41am

Aside from the plastic paddy paraphenalia on sale and tee shirts with offensive remarks, I stopped attending the NY St Patrick's Day Parade years ago because of the embarrassment I felt by the drunken, slobbering, beer-swilling young people along the route and in the subways.  My 'last straw' was when I asked a work colleague to spend our lunch hour at the parade (I worked in Manhattan only a few blocks from Fifth Avenue) and she remarked that she didn't see the point of being jostled by Irish drunkards.  I was ashamed because I knew it was true.

 I now live in Ireland and our small parades are much more enjoyable. I miss the the NYC Parade and its pomp and color, but I surely don't miss the embarrassing carryon of some of the attendees. 

Comment by Frank Scott on January 25, 2014 at 3:47am

I agree with Bit Devine and I dont normally get offended by Irish jokes etc. While travilling around Europe many times in pubs people wonder how I drink and function ( I dont get hangovers ). It seems we do drink a little differently to many other races and what is ok for Ireland is seen in another light in other lands.

Comment by jean kaniecki on January 25, 2014 at 6:59am

A perfect time to bring up this subject as the obscene and ridiculous t-shirts are starting to show up on store shelves.  And not only shirts but menus with "Irish dinner-potato and a 6 pack".  Absolutely most insulting was a London restaurant last year offering: Sundae, Bloody Sundae" with a toy soldier holding a rifle on top.  And just recently a national radio show ridiculing an Irishman with an accent : "Put a potato in his mouth" and then laughing recalliong the Great Famine..  And lest we forget the popular "Irish Car Bomb" drink.  Come on folks, I enjoy a joke as much as the next person but this has got to stop and we are the only ones who can do it.  I dance at an irish pub at least once a week and in over 20 years I have only seen a couple of people drunk- and they weren't the pub's regular customers.

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