BTW, please join me in congratulating author and new member David Gleeson upon last month's publication of "The Green and the Gray: The Irish in the Confederate States of America" (Civil War America).
Welcome, new member Mary Arnold, whose Irish ancestor, she relates, served in the Confederate army. Mary, might you provide more details of his service here?
Here's the lowdown on Mary's ancestor, or at least part of the story, awaiting Mary to fill in some blanks.
My great-grandfather James Butler was b.1832 in Clonmel, Co.Tipperary. He was in the British Army and also witnessed the Charge of the Light Brigade as an artilleryman in the 1st Battalion of the Royal Artillery. After the Crimean War, he was sent to India and he deserted in 1857 from Calcutta and set sail for America. He settled in Memphis, TN. When the Civil War broke out, he joined "Walker's Ranger's" and was at battles such as Shiloh and Chickamagua. I found his desertion record from India last spring at the National Archives in London that confirmed the family story. Mary Butler Arnold
Thank you for the warm greeting Gerry. The family story is that James Butler was paid $1,000 to join the Confederate Army, probably because of his experience in the British Army. He had served with the British about 3 years after being forced into service. On the US Civil War website http://www.nps.gov/civilwar/soldiers-and-sailors-database.htm, this is the history of "Walker's Rangers". James was a Sargeant. James died in Memphis in 1911 after being a hardware merchant for many years. He m. Margaret Harrington in 1879 from Castletownbere, Co.Cork, and they had an only child Frank, b. 1880, my grandfather, born when his father was 48 years old.
2nd Regiment, Tennessee Infantry (Walker's)
Overview:2nd Infantry Regiment Volunteers [also called the Irish Regiment] was comprised of men from Memphis, Tennessee, and completed its organization at that city in May, 1861. In July totalling 541 effectives, it moved to Fort Pillow. It reported 18 killed, 64 wounded, and 33 missing at Belmont and suffered heavy casualties at Shiloh. Later the unit was consolidated into four companies and merged into Smith's 5th Confederate Infantry Regiment. Its commanders were Colonel J. Knox Walker, and Lieutenant Colonels James A. Ashford, William B. Ross, and James A. Smith."
James had a brother Patrick Butler b. 1839 who followed James to Memphis. He also served in the Confederate Army in a different unit,
Overview:154th (Senior) Infantry Regiment was organized in 1842 as the 154th Tennessee Militia Regiment. Reorganized at Randolph, Shelby County, Tennessee, in May, 1861, it was permitted to retain its old number. The men were from the counties of Shelby, Henry, McNairy, Hardeman, and Fayette. It fought at Belmont, Shiloh, and Richmond before being assigned to P.Smith's, Vaughan's, and Palmer's Brigade, Army of Tennessee. During April, 1863, it was consolidated with the 13th Regiment. It participated in the difficult campaigns of the army from Murfreesboro to Atlanta, returned to Tennessee with Hood, and was active in North Carolina. This regiment contained 802 men in July, 1861, had 13 disabled at Belmont, and lost thirty-one percent of the 650 engaged at Shiloh. It reported forty-one percent casualties of the 245 at Murfreesboro, and the 13th/154th totalled 428 men and 263 arms in December, 1863. The unit was included in the surrender on April 26, 1865. Its commanders were Colonels Edward Fitzgerald, Michael Magevney, Jr., and Preston Smith; Lieutenant Colonels John W. Dawson and Marcus J. Wright; and Majors Jones Genette, John D. Martin, and Marsh M. Patrick."Patrick d. 1917 at the Old Soldiers Home for Confederate soldiers in Hermitage, TN.He had one daughter named Agnes Butler Tirrell with wife Mrs. Ellen Kenney, a widow.
For anyone not familiar with the website above, I highly recommend it for Civil War history, It is supported by the National Parks Service and gives a wealth of information on Civil War history and it's regiments and soldiers. best regards from Texas, Mary Butler Arnold
Mary, thank you for sharing this information. Having watched the film "12 Years a Slave" last weekend, I find myself pondering the relationships between native Southerners, immigrants such as the Butler brothers, and the slaves in the South. One would think that the Irish would identify with the downtrodden blacks in the Confederacy, but that doesn't seem to be the norm. Racial relations are very complicated, it does seem to safe to say. Perhaps fellow group member David T. Gleeson could talk about that a bit having just published a new book about the Irish who served in the Confederacy.
Most of the Confederates had no personal connection to slavery. My great-grandfather James Butler was a "soldier of fortune" according to my grandfather who fought in 7 different conflicts in Ireland, Crimea, India and the South. For him, it was a job. Others joined out of loyalty to their state.
One of my distant cousins was Maj. Pierce Butler who was a British officer in America before the American Revolution. He married a South Carolina woman and resigned his commission. With the proceeds, he bought plantations in South Carolina and Georgia. After the Revolution, he was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and later a US Senator. He was largely responsible for keeping slavery in the US after independence, not a fact I'm proud of as his cousin. His family was one of the largest slaveholders in the South. A fascinating history of 5 generations of his family can be found in a book "Major Butler's Legacy" which is online with a few segments missing. Pierce was the son of Richard Butler, 5th Baronet of Cloughgrenan in Co.Carlow, Ireland. So the legacy of his family and slavery stretched from pre-Revolution to the Civil War.
From: CIVILWARPHILA automatic digest system <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU> Date: November 6, 2013 12:00:29 AM EST To: CIVILWARPHILA@LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU Subject: CIVILWARPHILA Digest - 4 Nov 2013 to 5 Nov 2013 (#2013-227) Reply-To: Civil War History in Philadelphia <CIVILWARPHILA@LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU>
There is 1 message totaling 31 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. 69th Irish Brigade - Grave markers Dedication on Saturday!
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 07:35:24 -0500 From: Anthony Waskie <awaski01@TEMPLE.EDU> Subject: 69th Irish Brigade - Grave markers Dedication on Saturday!
69th Irish Brigade - Grave markers Dedication on Saturday!
On Saturday we will again do what we do best “ Honoring the last resting places of our lads”
This Saturday November 9th we will honor the memory Of three more lads who fought with the 69th Pa “Irish Volunteers” At New Cathedral Cemetery at Front and Luzerne Streets in North Philadelphia. (near both Erie & Hunting Park Avenue) Time 11:00AM start
* Private Peter Glackin Co G Section J Range 10 Lot 39 * 1st Lt Alexander Lovett Co E Section X Row 12 Space 4 grave 3 * Private Bartholomew Hart Co H Section B Range 6 Lot 3 - W
For more than twelve years we have gathered to honor our 69th veterans and to place stones on their graves. We have averaged about 15-20 participants and are hoping the far see more this year as a large group of descendants of these three soldiers are flying in from as far a Florida and driving in from three surrounding states to join us.
JOIN US SATURDAY MORNING
------------------------------
End of CIVILWARPHILA Digest - 4 Nov 2013 to 5 Nov 2013 (#2013-227) ******************************************************************
Ger you asked for my most memorable battlefield experience it was the 135th Anniversary of Antietam, advancing through the cornfield in the early morning semi darkness through the mist and only the firing and noise of the Johonny Rebs advancing towards us. On the next day the attack on the Sunken Road with the rest of the Irish Brigade and having the honour of being one of the color guard and being killed holding the green flag! I was a guest of the 28th Mass.But I cannot finish without mentioning our trip down th the battlefield park on the 16th September and meeting you guys. The following day we managed to do the Park walk over the Cornfield 135 years to the day and the hour ( it also happened to be a Wednesday).
I have discovered a lot of great Civil War talks and lectures on U-Tube.
Heres a glass to the memory of old friends and comrades.
As we approach Veterans' Day, I cannot help thinking of the sacrifice that our service men and women are making this day. I also cannot help thinking of the bravery and fears of my family members and many others through history. Thank all of you who have served us and this great country. Your devotion to duty is why I do what I do... to, in some small way, keep alive the memory and deeds of some of our warriors of the Civil War in America. May we and future generations never forget nor take our freedom for granted.McDermott%20%282%29.jpg
Please welcome Mike Kane to The Wild Geese. Mike is a leading expert on the Fenian Brotherhood and the Irish experience during America's Civil War. He's jumped right in with a post today on 'the luckiest Irishman during the Civil War."
Does anyone know how many Irishmen volunteered for the 8th New York Volunteers after the fall of Ft. Sumter? And anything about this regiment? And Charles Knox of Knox Hatters had a son, Edward M. Knox who joins. Was the Knox family Irish Catholics? Charles Knox had come from Donegal originally (fascinating story).
I couldn't find Edward Knox in the roster of the 8th NY Vols. This regiment was known as the "First German Rifles" and was primarily recruited among New York City's German community, so they probably didn't have many Irishmen in their ranks, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few. Maybe Knox served in the 8th New York State Militia? Could he be the same Edward M Knox who served as an officer in the 15th NY Artillery Battery and was wounded at Gettysburg? His muster roll abstract says he was a hatter. I'd love to learn more either way.
Recall vaguely that the regiment was commanded by German immigrant Louis Blenker, who was later drummed out of service, accused of some kind of malfeasance, perhaps financial. For some reason, I also associate the 8th with Rockland County, in upstate New York. Can't recall why -- perhaps Blenker recruited a company there, or lived there after the war. Cynthia, the hatmaker nexus to the unit is fascinating. Did you know that recruitment for these early war regiments was so fierce that a company from one regiment fired on men from their own regiment who were attempting to transfer to another regiment, this in the fall of 1861, at their encampments in Willets Point, Long Island?
Yes, Brendan...it is Edward M. Knox because he was wounded in Gettysburg and received a medal of honor. His father, the hatter who made Lincoln's famous top hat, went to look for him on the field. I love the story of Charles Knox and how he came from Donegal to NYC and became a success.I'm reluctant to state why Edward is so important to me, but I will say that it has to do with a new novel I'm currently writing. Anyway, the sources are not consistent about the 8th New York State Militia and the 8th NY Volunteers. And there was another Edward Knox, but not the Edward M. Knox I'm trying to gather information on. I found a photo of him, as well, and he was deemed very handsome (not to me). It's all thrilling to learn about these people and I find that they are very much alive in many ways. Thanks. And if there is anything else, please let me know.
Like many, Knox may have joined on a 3-month enlistment in a militia unit that was federalized, and when then commitment ended, joined a 3-year regiment, in this case, the 15th New York Artillery. It is possible that, if it was actually equipped as a heavy artillery unit, the 15th might have seen its first combat as infantry. Perhaps Brendan can inform us.
Thanks, Ger! Yes, I believe he was only in for three months. I have copious notes here and there and should be more organized with references. I have that he was a Private from April 20th to July 25th (hence, the three month enlistment) and then was in the Irish Brigade May 14, 1862 and promoted to First Lt/Captain 14th NY and Independent Battery Jan. 27, 1864, served in VA and dangerously wounded i Gettysburg and resigned Oct. 23, 1863 because of being dangerously wounded. The medal was issued in 1892.His father was from Donegal and lived across the street from the Devlins who eventually came to NYC. They both had department stores that were successful, but Knox lasted longer. Isn't the name, Knox, a Scottish Presbyterian name? And yet in my research, I find he was involved in the Friendly Sons of St. Patrick's. Confusing...but in the end, I write fiction and as long as I don't have them sitting in the wrong chair for the times, there should be freedom. That's another discussion about having real people represented in one's novels.I've already done this in my other novels and so far, no back lash. And so what!
Brendan, I looked at some of your earlier comments and see you are writing a novel set during the Civil War. In regards to speech patterns, idioms, etc., there was a lot of "flash" as in the BBC series, Copper, but after reading a novel set in NYC in the Civil War period whereby the author used all "flash," I kept having to refer to her glossary and it was so annoying that I hated the novel. It can become too contrived. You're writing for people today and people today simply need to relate to that period without such a contrast in speech patterns. However, immersing yourself in some slang, idioms, speech patterns, etc. is very helpful. I've used The Writer's Guide to Everyday Life in the 1800s for years and have found it to be quite helpful. And reading books in the same time period, as well.
Cynthia, thanks for the tips! I'll definitely check that book out. It's funny you should mention the whole glossary issue; I might have to put one in my work as annoying as that might be.
The 8th NY State Militia mustered into Federal service for 3 months in '61 and again in '62, so it might be worth looking into.
The Friendly Sons of St. Patrick' are, I believe, a non-denominational organization, so it doesn't mean Knox was Catholic. But you can't necessarily go by name alone. There were then, and still are, many Irish Catholics with Scottish and English surnames. My own Hamilton ancestors were NY Irish Catholics, despite having a Scottish name. A lot can happen over the centuries however. Somebody may have simply converted to marry a Catholic girl eons ago. There were also Irish who "Anglicized" their Gaelic names through the years as well.
To find Knox's religion, I would recommend looking for obituaries for Knox and his family members in the NY papers: http://fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html.
Obits would mention the church where the service was held as well as the cemetery where the person was buried, which will clue you into their religious denomination.
Five Points Irish were reluctant to volunteer after Ft. Sumter, but many eventually want to prove their patriotism and even believe they'll stay primed to fight England, but many don't want anything to do with the war until they face conscription and they must. In spite of what we know about the Draft Riots, many Irish and African Americans lived in harmony in Five Points. Many Irish agreed with the Abolitionists but wouldn't align themselves with them because of the Republicans hatred of Catholicism. If they did, they were called Black Republicans. Tammany became aligned with the War Dems and then there were the Peace Dems (Fernando Wood). Much is not as clear as we've been taught it is in regards to the Irish, Abolitionism, and why they eventually joined up to fight. They received a little money and place, proved their patriotism, and certainly Corcoran's Fenian charisma and background enticed them. I'm interested in the untold and varied experiences of the Irish in Five Points from the time of Lincoln being elected to Gettysburg. I have many books, researched here and there, and have many notes. I'm not looking for general information, but untold slants on the Irish in NYC during this time period.
Cynthia, you may have already this but it's worth mentioning to anyone in the group interested in 19th century NY-Irish: Tyler Anbinder's book Five Points is absolutely fantastic. Well-researched and a great read to boot.
Thanks Brendan, I have that book and it is underlined and worn out from all my times referring to it. Perhaps I have enough research, but I always doubt that I do. I'm always looking for some gems, like when I to to the beach and sea glass hunt and the smallest piece of blue glass catches my eye. By the way, if you don't mind sharing a bit...and just a bit...what is the premise for your novel and is it your first?
Cynthia, this is probably not news to you either, but period newspapers are always illuminating. This is the best online source I've seen for those: http://www.fultonhistory.com/
The Civil War era widows' pension files and Navy survivors' certificates on Fold3.com are great sources of information and inspiration as well.
To answer your question, I'm working on a fictional memoir of an Irish-American veteran of the Civil War. It follows his service during the first two years of the conflict, and delves into his background on the streets of Hell's Kitchen, the Bowery, and Five Points. I've previously written a book of Civil War-inspired poetry, Jerusalem Plank Road, and a still-unpublished novel called Gabriel's Antlers.
Thank you Bendan. I didn't know about this source and it looks very interesting. Your project is intriguing, especially choosing fictional memoir. If it was written and published, I'd certainly use it as part of my research. My novel continues Norah's story as a milliner set during the Civil War period. Good on ya!
Hi Brendan and Ger - Thanks for all the information about Knox. If Edward M. Knox volunteered to the call for 75,000 volunteers and joined the 8th NY State Militia for three months (and i believe he did), would there have been fanfare and a parade? In the book, Gotham, the 69th is said to have been blessed by Bishop Hughes and then marched to the ferry on April 23rd. I thought the 69th, who had been in operation since '49, I believe, didn't march in response to this war until July. And in much of my reading, Five Points Irishmen were not enthusiastic to join in this cause. Yes, later, but initially, no. I will have my characters make up their own minds in regards to the war, but trying to understand the military terms, units, and battlefield drama is very difficult. There are those who study the Civil War in great detail and participate in re-enactments. My novel is not about the Civil War, but takes place in NYC during the war and other than a brief and terrible visit to Gettysburg, it won't be about war maneuvers, cannons, and artillery. But I need to know the basics. For instance, the divisions, i.e companies, regiments, and brigades. Can someone give me a simple breakdown. I have an article that explains this and I'm certain I could google, but if you can give e a simple breakdown, it would help. Hope your book is coming along, Brendan.
Knox's obit in the NY Times says he was a 3-month volunteer in the 8th NY Volunteers, but volunteer regiments were commonly confused with militia units in the papers, so I think you're right, it has to be the 8th Militia.
Just to make things a little more confusing, an important thing to remember about the 69th NY is that they were an existing militia unit before the war. The 69th NY State Militia fought at Bull Run in this capacity. After returning to NY and mustering out in August 1861, those surviving volunteers from the militia unit who chose to reenlist formed the core of the new 69th New York Volunteer Infantry, which was mustered into federal service in Sept 1861. They were probably engrossed in early war fervor same as many other Americans at that time, and although the 69th wasn't necessarily representative of the NYC Irish community as a whole, there was a lot of enthusiasm for the war in Manhattan at that time.
It was complicated however. In Edward Spann's Gotham at War, he explains that many New Yorkers sympathized with the South in the early days of the secession crisis, but when Ft Sumter was fired upon, it ignited nationalist sentiment among the city's populace, including Irish neighborhoods like Five Points. They might have approved of the notion of resisting federal (and Republican) domination, but taking up arms against the ol' stars and stripes crossed the line for many of them. As a result, you had a lot of "War Democrats" among the Irish population who loathed the Republicans but hated the treasonous Secesh even more. Moreover, they felt that the success of the whole notion of an independent, democratic republic was in danger, which threatened the hopes of Ireland and any other people yearning for freedom and pointing to the US as a model for their own future. It was a tenuous alliance that came apart for many NY Dems as the war progressed and issues like abolition, conscription, and substitution came into play. Which isn't to say that there weren't many, many skeptics and "Copperheads" among the NY Irish from day one.
Are you asking for specific orders of battle or just how those units designations relate? This is a good intro of typical army organization:
You might also start a discussion thread on the topic of 'Understanding Civil War Era Military Organization,' Cynthia, or whatever other specific lines of inquiry you may have. Specific questions are likely to be lost to the bulk of our other devotees by merely continuing on in this nonspecific thread.
Greetings Comrades! I've been off grid for a bit because of the paying work, my hobby activities, and some positive changes in my personal life. The 69th NYSV Historical Association was honored to march behind the 1/69th Infantry with the Children of the 69th in this year's Saint Patrick's Day Parade in New York City. Here is some video footage of the 1/69th and Historical Association - https://www.youtube.com/LBo4NoUT4E&h - let me know if this doesn't work. I'm cutting and pasting on my cellphone while relaxing at the Colonial Tavern in Fredericksburg, VA.
Great to hear from you, Pete. What's going in in Fredericksburg this weekend? I've forgotten, do you live in VA? Pete, https://www.youtube.com/LBo4NoUT4E&h seems a broken link!
Certainly there were nurses who went to the battlefield. And there were women who donned soldiers' clothing and pretended to be men. Does anyone know of an Irish woman who went to Gettysburg and what her experiences might have been?
Bridget Diver might have been at Gettysburg. She was an Irish native who followed her husband to the front with the 1st Michigan Cavalry, part of George A. Custer's famous Wolverine Brigade. I'd never heard of her until I saw Damian Shiel's article about her on his Irish in the American Civil War blog.
I'm half-way through reading The Irish in the American Civil War (Damiel Shiels) and these are interesting, although heartbreaking, stories. I'm reading about real lives and not just historical facts.
This painting depicts the Irish Brigade attack on those entrenchments at Spotsylvania. Note that the flag is of the 116th Pa., and the soldier on the right wears the insignia of the 69th NY.
I have done more research on Bishop Timon recently only to find out as Vincentian Visitor he was heavily involved with slavery especially at the Vincentian seminary at Perryville, Missouri. It seems his appointment to Buffalo was a very freeing experience after eleven years trying to cope with the complications of balancing Catholic doctrine, state law, and passive aggressive behaviors of his slaves.
Me Great Grand Father served in the 35th Indiana Volunteers(1st Irish), but I found out a day ago he originally signed up with the 61st (2nd Irish) but lacking numbers, they were incorporated into the 1st Irish. Looking for anything at all about the 61st, anything please.
Gerry Regan
BTW, please join me in congratulating author and new member David Gleeson upon last month's publication of "The Green and the Gray: The Irish in the Confederate States of America" (Civil War America).
Oct 22, 2013
Gerry Regan
Welcome, new member Mary Arnold, whose Irish ancestor, she relates, served in the Confederate army. Mary, might you provide more details of his service here?
Oct 29, 2013
Gerry Regan
Here's the lowdown on Mary's ancestor, or at least part of the story, awaiting Mary to fill in some blanks.
My great-grandfather James Butler was b.1832 in Clonmel, Co.Tipperary. He was in the British Army and also witnessed the Charge of the Light Brigade as an artilleryman in the 1st Battalion of the Royal Artillery. After the Crimean War, he was sent to India and he deserted in 1857 from Calcutta and set sail for America. He settled in Memphis, TN. When the Civil War broke out, he joined "Walker's Ranger's" and was at battles such as Shiloh and Chickamagua. I found his desertion record from India last spring at the National Archives in London that confirmed the family story. Mary Butler Arnold
Oct 29, 2013
Mary arnold
Thank you for the warm greeting Gerry. The family story is that James Butler was paid $1,000 to join the Confederate Army, probably because of his experience in the British Army. He had served with the British about 3 years after being forced into service. On the US Civil War website http://www.nps.gov/civilwar/soldiers-and-sailors-database.htm, this is the history of "Walker's Rangers". James was a Sargeant. James died in Memphis in 1911 after being a hardware merchant for many years. He m. Margaret Harrington in 1879 from Castletownbere, Co.Cork, and they had an only child Frank, b. 1880, my grandfather, born when his father was 48 years old.
2nd Regiment, Tennessee Infantry (Walker's)
154th Senior Regiment, Tennessee Infantry (1st Tennessee Volunteers)
For anyone not familiar with the website above, I highly recommend it for Civil War history, It is supported by the National Parks Service and gives a wealth of information on Civil War history and it's regiments and soldiers. best regards from Texas, Mary Butler Arnold
Oct 29, 2013
Gerry Regan
Mary, thank you for sharing this information. Having watched the film "12 Years a Slave" last weekend, I find myself pondering the relationships between native Southerners, immigrants such as the Butler brothers, and the slaves in the South. One would think that the Irish would identify with the downtrodden blacks in the Confederacy, but that doesn't seem to be the norm. Racial relations are very complicated, it does seem to safe to say. Perhaps fellow group member David T. Gleeson could talk about that a bit having just published a new book about the Irish who served in the Confederacy.
Oct 29, 2013
Gerry Regan
http://thenewwildgeese.com/profiles/blogs/cleburne-the-defense-of-r...
is a great story about an Irishman who seemed to at least understand that the Confederacy had no real future as a slavocracy!
Oct 29, 2013
Mary arnold
Most of the Confederates had no personal connection to slavery. My great-grandfather James Butler was a "soldier of fortune" according to my grandfather who fought in 7 different conflicts in Ireland, Crimea, India and the South. For him, it was a job. Others joined out of loyalty to their state.
One of my distant cousins was Maj. Pierce Butler who was a British officer in America before the American Revolution. He married a South Carolina woman and resigned his commission. With the proceeds, he bought plantations in South Carolina and Georgia. After the Revolution, he was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and later a US Senator. He was largely responsible for keeping slavery in the US after independence, not a fact I'm proud of as his cousin. His family was one of the largest slaveholders in the South. A fascinating history of 5 generations of his family can be found in a book "Major Butler's Legacy" which is online with a few segments missing. Pierce was the son of Richard Butler, 5th Baronet of Cloughgrenan in Co.Carlow, Ireland. So the legacy of his family and slavery stretched from pre-Revolution to the Civil War.
Oct 29, 2013
Gerry Regan
From: CIVILWARPHILA automatic digest system <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU>
Date: November 6, 2013 12:00:29 AM EST
To: CIVILWARPHILA@LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: CIVILWARPHILA Digest - 4 Nov 2013 to 5 Nov 2013 (#2013-227)
Reply-To: Civil War History in Philadelphia <CIVILWARPHILA@LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU>
There is 1 message totaling 31 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. 69th Irish Brigade - Grave markers Dedication on Saturday!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 07:35:24 -0500
From: Anthony Waskie <awaski01@TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject: 69th Irish Brigade - Grave markers Dedication on Saturday!
69th Irish Brigade - Grave markers Dedication on Saturday!
On Saturday we will again do what we do best
“ Honoring the last resting places of our lads”
This Saturday November 9th we will honor the memory
Of three more lads who fought with the 69th Pa “Irish Volunteers”
At New Cathedral Cemetery at Front and Luzerne Streets in North Philadelphia.
(near both Erie & Hunting Park Avenue) Time 11:00AM start
* Private Peter Glackin Co G Section J Range 10 Lot 39
* 1st Lt Alexander Lovett Co E Section X Row 12 Space 4 grave 3
* Private Bartholomew Hart Co H Section B Range 6 Lot 3 - W
For more than twelve years we have gathered to honor our 69th veterans
and to place stones on their graves. We have averaged about 15-20
participants and are hoping the far see more this year as a large group of descendants
of these three soldiers are flying in from as far a Florida and driving in from three surrounding states to join us.
JOIN US SATURDAY MORNING
------------------------------
End of CIVILWARPHILA Digest - 4 Nov 2013 to 5 Nov 2013 (#2013-227)
******************************************************************
Nov 7, 2013
Cameron William Robinson
Ger you asked for my most memorable battlefield experience it was the 135th Anniversary of Antietam, advancing through the cornfield in the early morning semi darkness through the mist and only the firing and noise of the Johonny Rebs advancing towards us. On the next day the attack on the Sunken Road with the rest of the Irish Brigade and having the honour of being one of the color guard and being killed holding the green flag! I was a guest of the 28th Mass.But I cannot finish without mentioning our trip down th the battlefield park on the 16th September and meeting you guys. The following day we managed to do the Park walk over the Cornfield 135 years to the day and the hour ( it also happened to be a Wednesday).
I have discovered a lot of great Civil War talks and lectures on U-Tube.
Heres a glass to the memory of old friends and comrades.
Cameron
Nov 9, 2013
Joseph Maghe
As we approach Veterans' Day, I cannot help thinking of the sacrifice that our service men and women are making this day. I also cannot help thinking of the bravery and fears of my family members and many others through history. Thank all of you who have served us and this great country. Your devotion to duty is why I do what I do... to, in some small way, keep alive the memory and deeds of some of our warriors of the Civil War in America. May we and future generations never forget nor take our freedom for granted.McDermott%20%282%29.jpg
Nov 9, 2013
Gerry Regan
Joe, maybe you can give your peeps a shout-out by name here, along with their branch of service.
Nov 9, 2013
Gerry Regan
Just discovered this news, from CWN, 2009:
http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/articles/09/june/meagher_060907...
Feb 17, 2014
Gerry Regan
Please welcome Mike Kane to The Wild Geese. Mike is a leading expert on the Fenian Brotherhood and the Irish experience during America's Civil War. He's jumped right in with a post today on 'the luckiest Irishman during the Civil War."
Feb 21, 2014
Gerry Regan
Poignant tribute by Joe Gannon to recently deceased sculptor Ron Tunison, who created the Irish Brigade monument at Antietam National Battlefield.
Feb 22, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Does anyone know how many Irishmen volunteered for the 8th New York Volunteers after the fall of Ft. Sumter? And anything about this regiment? And Charles Knox of Knox Hatters had a son, Edward M. Knox who joins. Was the Knox family Irish Catholics? Charles Knox had come from Donegal originally (fascinating story).
Feb 24, 2014
Brendan Hamilton
I couldn't find Edward Knox in the roster of the 8th NY Vols. This regiment was known as the "First German Rifles" and was primarily recruited among New York City's German community, so they probably didn't have many Irishmen in their ranks, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few. Maybe Knox served in the 8th New York State Militia? Could he be the same Edward M Knox who served as an officer in the 15th NY Artillery Battery and was wounded at Gettysburg? His muster roll abstract says he was a hatter. I'd love to learn more either way.
Feb 24, 2014
Gerry Regan
Recall vaguely that the regiment was commanded by German immigrant Louis Blenker, who was later drummed out of service, accused of some kind of malfeasance, perhaps financial. For some reason, I also associate the 8th with Rockland County, in upstate New York. Can't recall why -- perhaps Blenker recruited a company there, or lived there after the war. Cynthia, the hatmaker nexus to the unit is fascinating. Did you know that recruitment for these early war regiments was so fierce that a company from one regiment fired on men from their own regiment who were attempting to transfer to another regiment, this in the fall of 1861, at their encampments in Willets Point, Long Island?
Feb 24, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Yes, Brendan...it is Edward M. Knox because he was wounded in Gettysburg and received a medal of honor. His father, the hatter who made Lincoln's famous top hat, went to look for him on the field. I love the story of Charles Knox and how he came from Donegal to NYC and became a success.I'm reluctant to state why Edward is so important to me, but I will say that it has to do with a new novel I'm currently writing. Anyway, the sources are not consistent about the 8th New York State Militia and the 8th NY Volunteers. And there was another Edward Knox, but not the Edward M. Knox I'm trying to gather information on. I found a photo of him, as well, and he was deemed very handsome (not to me). It's all thrilling to learn about these people and I find that they are very much alive in many ways. Thanks. And if there is anything else, please let me know.
Feb 24, 2014
Gerry Regan
Like many, Knox may have joined on a 3-month enlistment in a militia unit that was federalized, and when then commitment ended, joined a 3-year regiment, in this case, the 15th New York Artillery. It is possible that, if it was actually equipped as a heavy artillery unit, the 15th might have seen its first combat as infantry. Perhaps Brendan can inform us.
Feb 24, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Thanks, Ger! Yes, I believe he was only in for three months. I have copious notes here and there and should be more organized with references. I have that he was a Private from April 20th to July 25th (hence, the three month enlistment) and then was in the Irish Brigade May 14, 1862 and promoted to First Lt/Captain 14th NY and Independent Battery Jan. 27, 1864, served in VA and dangerously wounded i Gettysburg and resigned Oct. 23, 1863 because of being dangerously wounded. The medal was issued in 1892.His father was from Donegal and lived across the street from the Devlins who eventually came to NYC. They both had department stores that were successful, but Knox lasted longer. Isn't the name, Knox, a Scottish Presbyterian name? And yet in my research, I find he was involved in the Friendly Sons of St. Patrick's. Confusing...but in the end, I write fiction and as long as I don't have them sitting in the wrong chair for the times, there should be freedom. That's another discussion about having real people represented in one's novels.I've already done this in my other novels and so far, no back lash. And so what!
Feb 24, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Brendan, I looked at some of your earlier comments and see you are writing a novel set during the Civil War. In regards to speech patterns, idioms, etc., there was a lot of "flash" as in the BBC series, Copper, but after reading a novel set in NYC in the Civil War period whereby the author used all "flash," I kept having to refer to her glossary and it was so annoying that I hated the novel. It can become too contrived. You're writing for people today and people today simply need to relate to that period without such a contrast in speech patterns. However, immersing yourself in some slang, idioms, speech patterns, etc. is very helpful. I've used The Writer's Guide to Everyday Life in the 1800s for years and have found it to be quite helpful. And reading books in the same time period, as well.
Feb 24, 2014
Gerry Regan
I've come across Devlin and his department store, an article somewhere years ago. Is the entrepreneur buried in Calvary Cemetery or Woodlawn?
Feb 24, 2014
Brendan Hamilton
Cynthia, thanks for the tips! I'll definitely check that book out. It's funny you should mention the whole glossary issue; I might have to put one in my work as annoying as that might be.
The 8th NY State Militia mustered into Federal service for 3 months in '61 and again in '62, so it might be worth looking into.
The Friendly Sons of St. Patrick' are, I believe, a non-denominational organization, so it doesn't mean Knox was Catholic. But you can't necessarily go by name alone. There were then, and still are, many Irish Catholics with Scottish and English surnames. My own Hamilton ancestors were NY Irish Catholics, despite having a Scottish name. A lot can happen over the centuries however. Somebody may have simply converted to marry a Catholic girl eons ago. There were also Irish who "Anglicized" their Gaelic names through the years as well.
To find Knox's religion, I would recommend looking for obituaries for Knox and his family members in the NY papers: http://fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html.
Obits would mention the church where the service was held as well as the cemetery where the person was buried, which will clue you into their religious denomination.
Feb 25, 2014
Brendan Hamilton
I just looked at your website, Cynthia--your books sound really fascinating! Will definitely need to add them to my reading list.
Feb 25, 2014
James E. Mis
Hi Guys, I'm new to The Wild Geese and the study of Irish units in the American Civil War is my hobby. I look forward to talking with you guys
Feb 25, 2014
Joseph Maghe
Welcome to the group, James.
Feb 25, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Five Points Irish were reluctant to volunteer after Ft. Sumter, but many eventually want to prove their patriotism and even believe they'll stay primed to fight England, but many don't want anything to do with the war until they face conscription and they must. In spite of what we know about the Draft Riots, many Irish and African Americans lived in harmony in Five Points. Many Irish agreed with the Abolitionists but wouldn't align themselves with them because of the Republicans hatred of Catholicism. If they did, they were called Black Republicans. Tammany became aligned with the War Dems and then there were the Peace Dems (Fernando Wood). Much is not as clear as we've been taught it is in regards to the Irish, Abolitionism, and why they eventually joined up to fight. They received a little money and place, proved their patriotism, and certainly Corcoran's Fenian charisma and background enticed them. I'm interested in the untold and varied experiences of the Irish in Five Points from the time of Lincoln being elected to Gettysburg. I have many books, researched here and there, and have many notes. I'm not looking for general information, but untold slants on the Irish in NYC during this time period.
Mar 1, 2014
Brendan Hamilton
Cynthia, you may have already this but it's worth mentioning to anyone in the group interested in 19th century NY-Irish: Tyler Anbinder's book Five Points is absolutely fantastic. Well-researched and a great read to boot.
Mar 1, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Thanks Brendan, I have that book and it is underlined and worn out from all my times referring to it. Perhaps I have enough research, but I always doubt that I do. I'm always looking for some gems, like when I to to the beach and sea glass hunt and the smallest piece of blue glass catches my eye. By the way, if you don't mind sharing a bit...and just a bit...what is the premise for your novel and is it your first?
Mar 1, 2014
Brendan Hamilton
Cynthia, this is probably not news to you either, but period newspapers are always illuminating. This is the best online source I've seen for those: http://www.fultonhistory.com/
The Civil War era widows' pension files and Navy survivors' certificates on Fold3.com are great sources of information and inspiration as well.
To answer your question, I'm working on a fictional memoir of an Irish-American veteran of the Civil War. It follows his service during the first two years of the conflict, and delves into his background on the streets of Hell's Kitchen, the Bowery, and Five Points. I've previously written a book of Civil War-inspired poetry, Jerusalem Plank Road, and a still-unpublished novel called Gabriel's Antlers.
Mar 1, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Thank you Bendan. I didn't know about this source and it looks very interesting. Your project is intriguing, especially choosing fictional memoir. If it was written and published, I'd certainly use it as part of my research. My novel continues Norah's story as a milliner set during the Civil War period. Good on ya!
Mar 2, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Hi Brendan and Ger - Thanks for all the information about Knox. If Edward M. Knox volunteered to the call for 75,000 volunteers and joined the 8th NY State Militia for three months (and i believe he did), would there have been fanfare and a parade? In the book, Gotham, the 69th is said to have been blessed by Bishop Hughes and then marched to the ferry on April 23rd. I thought the 69th, who had been in operation since '49, I believe, didn't march in response to this war until July. And in much of my reading, Five Points Irishmen were not enthusiastic to join in this cause. Yes, later, but initially, no. I will have my characters make up their own minds in regards to the war, but trying to understand the military terms, units, and battlefield drama is very difficult. There are those who study the Civil War in great detail and participate in re-enactments. My novel is not about the Civil War, but takes place in NYC during the war and other than a brief and terrible visit to Gettysburg, it won't be about war maneuvers, cannons, and artillery. But I need to know the basics. For instance, the divisions, i.e companies, regiments, and brigades. Can someone give me a simple breakdown. I have an article that explains this and I'm certain I could google, but if you can give e a simple breakdown, it would help. Hope your book is coming along, Brendan.
Mar 24, 2014
Brendan Hamilton
Cynthia,
Knox's obit in the NY Times says he was a 3-month volunteer in the 8th NY Volunteers, but volunteer regiments were commonly confused with militia units in the papers, so I think you're right, it has to be the 8th Militia.
Just to make things a little more confusing, an important thing to remember about the 69th NY is that they were an existing militia unit before the war. The 69th NY State Militia fought at Bull Run in this capacity. After returning to NY and mustering out in August 1861, those surviving volunteers from the militia unit who chose to reenlist formed the core of the new 69th New York Volunteer Infantry, which was mustered into federal service in Sept 1861. They were probably engrossed in early war fervor same as many other Americans at that time, and although the 69th wasn't necessarily representative of the NYC Irish community as a whole, there was a lot of enthusiasm for the war in Manhattan at that time.
It was complicated however. In Edward Spann's Gotham at War, he explains that many New Yorkers sympathized with the South in the early days of the secession crisis, but when Ft Sumter was fired upon, it ignited nationalist sentiment among the city's populace, including Irish neighborhoods like Five Points. They might have approved of the notion of resisting federal (and Republican) domination, but taking up arms against the ol' stars and stripes crossed the line for many of them. As a result, you had a lot of "War Democrats" among the Irish population who loathed the Republicans but hated the treasonous Secesh even more. Moreover, they felt that the success of the whole notion of an independent, democratic republic was in danger, which threatened the hopes of Ireland and any other people yearning for freedom and pointing to the US as a model for their own future. It was a tenuous alliance that came apart for many NY Dems as the war progressed and issues like abolition, conscription, and substitution came into play. Which isn't to say that there weren't many, many skeptics and "Copperheads" among the NY Irish from day one.
Are you asking for specific orders of battle or just how those units designations relate? This is a good intro of typical army organization:
http://ehistory.osu.edu/uscw/features/regimental/infantry.cfm
I can give you more detail if you're looking for something more specific.
Mar 24, 2014
Gerry Regan
You might also start a discussion thread on the topic of 'Understanding Civil War Era Military Organization,' Cynthia, or whatever other specific lines of inquiry you may have. Specific questions are likely to be lost to the bulk of our other devotees by merely continuing on in this nonspecific thread.
Mar 24, 2014
Peter M. Berezuk
Mar 28, 2014
Gerry Regan
Great to hear from you, Pete. What's going in in Fredericksburg this weekend? I've forgotten, do you live in VA? Pete, https://www.youtube.com/LBo4NoUT4E&h seems a broken link!
Mar 29, 2014
Peter M. Berezuk
Here is the correct link for the NYC Saint Patrick's Day video...
Apr 3, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Certainly there were nurses who went to the battlefield. And there were women who donned soldiers' clothing and pretended to be men. Does anyone know of an Irish woman who went to Gettysburg and what her experiences might have been?
Apr 3, 2014
Brendan Hamilton
Bridget Diver might have been at Gettysburg. She was an Irish native who followed her husband to the front with the 1st Michigan Cavalry, part of George A. Custer's famous Wolverine Brigade. I'd never heard of her until I saw Damian Shiel's article about her on his Irish in the American Civil War blog.
Apr 3, 2014
Cynthia Neale
Brendan, thanks! You've been a wealth of information. You should be charging, but I have no money to pay you!
Apr 4, 2014
Cynthia Neale
I'm half-way through reading The Irish in the American Civil War (Damiel Shiels) and these are interesting, although heartbreaking, stories. I'm reading about real lives and not just historical facts.
Apr 4, 2014
Harry Paige
May 4, 2014
Gerry Regan
Harry, on whose right -- the Federals' or the Confederates?
May 5, 2014
Harry Paige
federals
May 5, 2014
Gerry Regan
Oct 18, 2014
William J. Donohue
I have done more research on Bishop Timon recently only to find out as Vincentian Visitor he was heavily involved with slavery especially at the Vincentian seminary at Perryville, Missouri. It seems his appointment to Buffalo was a very freeing experience after eleven years trying to cope with the complications of balancing Catholic doctrine, state law, and passive aggressive behaviors of his slaves.
Jun 26, 2016
Gerry Regan
Fascinating, Bill. How did clerics balance what seems the clear immorality of slavery with collaboration of the South's slavocracy?
Jun 27, 2016
John Bullock
Me Great Grand Father served in the 35th Indiana Volunteers(1st Irish), but I found out a day ago he originally signed up with the 61st (2nd Irish) but lacking numbers, they were incorporated into the 1st Irish. Looking for anything at all about the 61st, anything please.
Jul 12, 2016
Gerry Regan
You've seen this, I hope, John: http://thewildgeese.irish/profiles/blogs/the-35th-indiana-hoosier-s... Try contacting the author. Hey Joe Gannon, didn't we have an article in WG 1 about Father Peter Paul Cooney, by a reenactor acquaintance of ours from Indiana? Is that on WG 2?
Jul 13, 2016
Gerry Regan
Here it is: http://thewildgeese.irish/profiles/blogs/father-peter-paul-cooney-f...
Father Peter Paul Cooney: Faithful Servant
Jul 13, 2016