The Irish Character?

We shouldn't be too sensitive, but accepting this stereotype has tragic knock-on effects to our national self perception.

 Danny makes a good point though, why is t acceptable to ridicule the Irish coming up to the biggest celebration of our ethnicity, St Patrick's Day.There is a double standard at play here & it would not be permitted or tolerated by other ethnic groups to the tune where heads would roll & media coverage would be plastered(excuse the pun) on all papers ,radio & TV. We Irish have ,in general , a strong & even irreverent sense of humor that I think stems from our fight to overcome adversity in the mode of," Its better to laugh than to cry about it".The history of the saying ,"The Luck of the Irish", was actually a put down by the old establishment that argued ,"Paddy was too inept & feckless to have made his fortune by intelligence, ability & hard graft, it was just luck that got him there". This notion prevailed to quite recently, with the election of JFK making a significant dent to that argument & a breakthrough to acceptance that we had so long for craved. I personally enjoy the holiday with my Irish wife & American children as a celebration of our heritage & how far we have come. I march proudly up 5th Ave with my county & thereafter enjoy a few beverages with my fellow Irish revelers until I depart to rest before my next day back at the grindstone, without feeling the need to cause a riot or make a "Paddy Wagon", my mode of transport for the evening. This year the jokes will fly & the negative stereotypes will abound as usual,if I hear something that is genuinely funny, i will laugh, because lets face it a joke is always at someones expense but mostly I will just enjoy the day on the calendar that is our day in the world where everyone wishes to be Irish.

Let's start with the wee leprechaun who prances on the sidelines for the "fighting Irish."

I have helped a lot of people find their way through out Ireland on their "Once in a lifetime" vacations...when I ask them what draws them to Ireland...Everyone has said "I hear the people are so friendly and warm there" I hear them say "I've seen photos and it is so beautiful there!"... Never have they said "I'm going for the drink"... so I am not so sure that there is a perception of the Irish being drunken eejits.

It isn't just Irish that are the brunt of Ethnic stereotypes. I've heard every Mexican joke there is...told a few, as well...

I will agree that it is perplexing that there is an outcry if someone puts on black face, mimics an Oriental or Native American...Yet if ya put on green, a fake red beard and "dance a jig" that is acceptable... as is serapes and sombreros...

Perhaps it is because society understands that we have a thicker hide and a better sense of humor... We also have a true sense of who we are, our history and our accomplishments...perhaps that also gives us a leg up

As an aside, those folks in the NYC area who want to enjoy a fun-filled Sober St. Patrick's Day might want to consider attending the third annual party, held this year at Cathedral High School on the East Side right after the parade. I attended Sober St. Patrick's Day the past two years at Regis High School, and it's a terrific day - some great music like Brian Conway on the fiddle and John Whelan on the box, excellent craic, nice sandwich, tea, coffee or soft drink, dessert. A good time that's over by the early evening, so if you want to grab a jar or two you have time for that. (I am not involved in running the event -just a happy patron. Google "Sober St. Patrick's day" for more info.)

Danny, this is certanly a very interesting subject, one that I've seen debated back and forth in other places online as well. On the one hand we have the "oh stop being so PC" or "don't you have a sense of humor ... it's just a joke" side if one does object to such jokes. And on the other hand we have the idea if we just accept these jokes without ever objecting to them, we allow the stereotype to be perpetuated. With most issues we look for a compromise positon, but is there really one on this, and if so, what is it?

I am like everyone else, in that, being Irish and allowing this sterotype to exists really does not affect me in a extremely negative way. Our hertige is all about struggle, fighting and celebration. I am a hugh Notre Dame fan and to hear the phrase "Here come the Irish"! brings tears to my eyes at times but always allows my pride to swell.

Yes, I AM IRISH and PROUD of it!

I know we have thick skins and enjoy even cracking on ourselfs on occassion. But, I also know that is an extremely degrogatory slash at our heritage when we accept things as they are. Again, I like a grand joke as well as the other guy but I am very careful to inflict that humor in a non-hurtful way. I know we will never stop this just as others will never stop their slanders, but it is nice to know that we as a people recognize it for what it is.

Thank you everyone for your inputs and virews! I knew this would awaken and stir some to anger or even to sadness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oG63Yi...

For all of us who enjoy the University of Notre Dame atletics! Enjoy and be proud!

"Fighting Irish" does not mean we start altercations or brawls, it simply means "we never give up" regardless the odds!

Yes I think he does but the Lep has been a part of Irish Lore long before us. If you have ever attended a ND game at South Bend you will see it is done ina very tasteful way and not allowed to fester into insults or other means of provocation. He is just the Irish mascot! I am not ashamed of the Lep as long as it is represented as it should be.

Jim, you aren't a Michigan fan are you? LOL

When I lived in Britain I found that Irish jokes were used by non Irish people as a put down in a passive aggressive way. It was very hard to say anything because if I did the response was "Can'nt you take a joke".But I know when someone is joking for a laugh and when it is to insult.

On the other hand when tensions were high before the peace process and there were frequent bomb scares which resulted in the underground being closed on occasion and the ring of steel created around London. A lot of Britains disliked the Irish and regarded us as stupid. It did not help matters when the Irish took the piss out of themselves. This gave them the excuse to make jokes about us saying " Well you make fun of yourselves so why are you upset when we do it"

Finally as already mentioned the Irish do like a drink but we are no saints. I saw it in London years back and it is happening in Austrailia today. Were they get so drunk at the weekends, fight and are a pain in the ass. Plus I was one of the few that enjoyed learning the culture of the country I was a guest in. Most did'nt and from what I have herd things have'nt change much today. Living in an Irish bubble is'nt good. 

This is a good debate to have but as you can see I have mixed feelings and can not be for or against the argument.

Bernie, a lot of the ethnic groups who like to make fun of the drinking of the Irish live in glass houses themselves, not the least of which would be the British. I was once on a train going to Canada that had a group of British football fans on it who were all congregated down in the drinking car. They got so drunk and rowdy, just like the stereotypical British football fans, that somewhere around the middle of Vermont they actually had to stop the train and have the state police take them off.

I agree with what you are saying Joe and I am not saying it is only the Irish who behave badly abroad. It is interesting that there is far more emphasis on us being drunk than the British. We are stuck with a bad image that wo'nt go away until we show the world that there is more to us than that.  

It's not that I don't poke fun at others and it's not that I can't take a joke, but seeing the same drunken references year after year after year after year is too much. If it were any other ethnic/religious/political etc. group it would be in the Supreme Court

In the 80s or 90s (I forget which), there was a concerted protest among Irish-American about "drunken" references to the Irish in greeting cards. It was very successful, and you might be pressed to find such a card in the States today.

For someone who lives in Ireland I can't believe some would find it acceptable to describe the Irish as "brawling drunkards." It's akin to describe Mexicans as lazy, Scottish as mean, Blacks/African Americans as unable to work, Chinese as all extreme gamblers or Californians as people to be the first to re-cork a wine bottle after one glass.

One thing the Irish are generally good at is socialising.....whether it be after a few pint or a cup of coffee/tea.

The AOH did a service by calling for the Christmas Tree Shops to eliminate their St. Patrick's Day "variety" items that portrayed the Irish as just drunken bozos. Christmas Tree Shops agreed to recall the items from their stores. We should tell the management in the comments section of their website that they made the right decision. both ethically and financially.

This is a really interesting discussion. I feel that one of the problems is that there are several issues being thrown together. So yes, some of the Irish do like to drink but not as much as most other nations - the Brits especially. The brawling though is a realistic picture from the past when the Irish engaged in Faction Fighting as a kind of very violent sport. This in training tended in turn to make the Irish great soldiers because at times he hand to hand fighting they engaged in wasn't half as bad as the Faction Fights they'd already been in. Clearly, the Irish are not stupid however, like any people whose culture is non-English in origin, they are going to have their own but consistent inner logic thought process. But again that's no different from any other non-English group in relation to English speaking popular culture. But the most confusing aspect of all this is that the generation who survived the Great Hunger, when they escaped to America, were doubly burdened. On the one hand they probably wanted to forget Ireland but on the other they also wanted to remember it. In addition they wanted to laugh and enjoy life. The result was the Irish-American dance hall culture in which the Irish often joked about themselves but in a way that was often lost on a non-Irish audience that today would probably be equally as lost on an Irish born audience. To make a comparison, that old Irish culture (which again centered around the Factions) was a lot like modern Black culture where say a singer brags about how he is the best fighter, the best lover, the king of everything, but both he and his audience know that's all a bluff. The entertainment comes from how good a liar he is, how outrageous his exaggerations are and how well he crafts his words. The last, unfortunate remnants of this whole culture is the modern "who can create the most outrageous Irish insults" culture. I've covered some of this in my book "Shillelagh: The Irish Fighting Stick" and in two articles for the Wild Geese Today.

Unfortunately, I don't think the situation is going to change any time soon because as always there is no unity. There really seems to no longer be a single Irish culture, but a number of splintered Irish identities which seem at odds with each other. In my experience, people raised in the Irish states' Revisionist Ireland seem to have a particular elitist ire towards that number of cultures which call themselves "Irish" around the world, especially the various Irish American cultures. So if on the one hand Americans born of Irish ancestry try to fight the stupid drunken brawler stereotype in pop culture, it seems that instead of solidarity, the only thanks they can expect in return is to be called "Plastic Paddies" behind their backs.

Hi everyone! I am by no means an expert on post-colonial theory, however, I am an art historian who specializes in the history of Irish art. In fact, I recently addressed a very similar topic in my blog at theirisharthistorian.com.

Prior to the turn of the twentieth century, the Irish were often depicted in one of three states, drinking, dancing or fighting. This was more or less the product of "pictorial colonization" whereby the image serves to maintain the status of the Irish as 2nd class citizens, thereby legitimizing the role of the British as a superior or dominant culture. The Celtic Revival and the foundation of the Gaelic League in 1893 went a long, long way towards mitigating this effect during the founding of the Free State.

However, those who emigrated in the wake of the Great Hunger of 1845-1849 were, on the whole, unskilled and impoverished. (And not too mention traumatized by the horrors of famine, disease, etc.) Negative stereotypes persisted in the new world and rampant racism and xenophobia resulted in the Irish still being seen and depicted as unwanted "others." In fact, at about the same time of the American Civil War, the Irish found themselves at the bottom of the immigrant social hierarchy, just above freed slaves.

The problem with the persistence of these stereotypes of "fighting, drinking Irish" is that they make light of a very serious problem of substance abuse. There are many who view the rampant alcoholism among the Irish as one of the unfortunate legacies of the famine years, and in fact, of colonialism in general. (Consider the plight of the Native Americans - the situations are in fact very parallel.) We generally don't recognize these depictions as "negative stereotypes" because the Irish are "white." The stereotype is harder to see. And because our culture currently glorifies gratuitous partying.

I admit that I like Irish whiskey and will occasionally have a Guinness, but yes, I am mildly offended by the stereotype Irish drinker. There is so much more to being Irish! Most of the time, I just ignore it, but around St. Patrick's Day, it becomes more than annoying. It is hard to find a greeting card suitable for my grandkids. But seriously, one does not have to be Irish to have a "problem" with drinking.

Such great discussion here.  Thanks to everyone who has "weighed in" so far.  

Aside from the plastic paddy paraphenalia on sale and tee shirts with offensive remarks, I stopped attending the NY St Patrick's Day Parade years ago because of the embarrassment I felt by the drunken, slobbering, beer-swilling young people along the route and in the subways.  My 'last straw' was when I asked a work colleague to spend our lunch hour at the parade (I worked in Manhattan only a few blocks from Fifth Avenue) and she remarked that she didn't see the point of being jostled by Irish drunkards.  I was ashamed because I knew it was true.

 I now live in Ireland and our small parades are much more enjoyable. I miss the the NYC Parade and its pomp and color, but I surely don't miss the embarrassing carryon of some of the attendees. 

I agree with Bit Devine and I dont normally get offended by Irish jokes etc. While travilling around Europe many times in pubs people wonder how I drink and function ( I dont get hangovers ). It seems we do drink a little differently to many other races and what is ok for Ireland is seen in another light in other lands.

A perfect time to bring up this subject as the obscene and ridiculous t-shirts are starting to show up on store shelves.  And not only shirts but menus with "Irish dinner-potato and a 6 pack".  Absolutely most insulting was a London restaurant last year offering: Sundae, Bloody Sundae" with a toy soldier holding a rifle on top.  And just recently a national radio show ridiculing an Irishman with an accent : "Put a potato in his mouth" and then laughing recalliong the Great Famine..  And lest we forget the popular "Irish Car Bomb" drink.  Come on folks, I enjoy a joke as much as the next person but this has got to stop and we are the only ones who can do it.  I dance at an irish pub at least once a week and in over 20 years I have only seen a couple of people drunk- and they weren't the pub's regular customers.

At the end of the day stupid people will make stupid comments......no matter where they are.

To brighten up the day take a look at these 600 Irish kids singing in Irish. (we don't say Gaelic)

http://www.flixxy.com/the-cup-song-you-re-gonna-miss-me-when-im-gon...

@Kevin - a good uplift indeed!

A large percentage of the teenaged "Irish" drunkards at the St. Patrick's Day Parade aren't Irish at all, but are young impressionable minds buying in to the fiction that St. Patrick's Day is a day when drinking to excess is "cool."

It is the actions of the young as mentioned above by Mary that seems to be ongoing. Do you think that the  depiction of the Irish cause some to beleive that this is the expected behavior?

Kevin, that was oustanding!

Are we talking of the Irish in Ireland or Irish americans / young people joining in on Paddys day in the US?

One last thing.....I noticed last year on line a lot of people in the US describing the day as "Patty's Day" where on earth did that come from?

I can't see why, it is a widely used term by very many Irish here in Ireland. I've never known an Irish person to be offended by "Paddy's Day" here. Perhaps it is in the US by Irish Americans.

I know exactly what terms offend here and Paddy's Day isn't one of them.

@Geraldine - I agree but even here in Ireland the growing trend is "Paddy's Day'.  For the great majority of the time,  using this is not meant to be offensive but rather a short-cut.    However, we do have those whose PC-ness requires them to drop the proper title because it includes the word 'St.' which caters to Christians and therefor may be deemed as non-inclusive of the growing cosmopolitan population of the country.  

In New York, teenagers not of drinking age cut school on St. Patrick's Day to go to the parade and drink openly on the streets. Somehow they think there's a license to behave that way on that particular day. Like I said, many of them are not Irish at all. And, by the way, the Puerto Rican Day parade has had similar problems.

A fascinating blog and final comment, Danny. Thank you, Bit Devine for a sensible comment to put things in perspective. Finally, perhaps it is worth 'taking the ridiculous stereotypes from whence they come', although the collective Irish psyche will remain vulnerable and easily wounded until one day there is a united Ireland. I am a supreme optimist . . .

My final comment to everyone would be a challenge everyone worldwide to actively work, though slow it will be and seemly impossible at times, to change the way our neighbors, friends, communities,and indeed the world sees us as a people. Not by physical means, but through peaceful means, such as boycotts of products and vendors who sell and distribute the demeaning items, and attempt to educate our children on the pride of their cultural heritage. These are only two things that could be done. As Geraldine stated earlier, a media blitz, showing the good the Irish have done and continue to do can be another.

It all boils down to this I believe.If we want the world to see us any other way it is up to us!

God Bless each of you for your input and thank to The Wild Geese for allowing me this opportunity!

where did this Irish Character originate ?  why of course THE ENGLISH, especially  the years 1845/52, still referred to as famine years, this was a holocaust, a deliberate attempt by the governing class of England to totally eliminate the Irish, A DECIDED GENOCIDE, yet we have Irish writers, politicians, etc calling it a famine, Of course nothing new, England tried for 800 years to wipe IRISH,off the face of the earth,--YES FAILED--but why does so many IRISH,in politics,eduction, etc try to sanitise our history , by CALLING IT FAMINE, DO THEY NOT KNOW THEIR HISTORY ?

And we Irish know better than to take ourselves too seriously that is why we  are unique, we can laugh at ourselves

The British and all of their supporters and hanger-on's have been ridiculing the Irish for too long! Now everybody thinks that its fair game to spit out his or her favorite Irish put down. Well, we have been nice about it, and laughing, pretending that we are not hurt by these jabs. However, enough is enough, the world's history books are corrupted against both the Irish and the Celts in general, and the English have pretty much convinced a good percentage of the world that the Irish are too soft in the head to have achieved anything of any merit. Let us turn the tables, not by telling jokes about the British, but to better educate the world on our true record. In addition, not just the amazing history of the Irish in America, but remind everyone about what our cousins have done all over Europe, South America, Australia and more! We are an older race than the British, and much of their present day culture is owed to that of the Irish. Think about! Slan  

When we reinforce these stereotypes, we ignore what our ancestors had to overcome in the past.  Yes, it is out nature to find the humor in smart sayings, a bit of a put down on ourselves--but the time does come when funny or cute is DEROGATORY to the point of diminishing us as a culture, as an important of the land we live in--we are teaching others that we are a silly, drunken, unruly people.  This is the knowledge that  future generations will know--not the greatness of who we have been & still are.  Put downs aren't funny when used over & over--they become the basis--or point of reference.

I thought I would inform everyone that I just read the IRISHCENTRAL.COM website and this very topic of sorts is on their fron page. I directed them to our discussion and would ask that each of you visit their site as well.

Good day!