‘St. Pat’s Drinking Team’: Taking On Irish Stereotypes

Signed it!  Please pass this along to all your friends and family.

I was happy to sign it because I completely agree with this position. Hope it works.

While I applaud your effort in venturing to protect the good name of the Irish people, and I think you raise a discussion that's worth having, I still respectfully disagree with your effort. To be sure, the Spencer's-type material is tasteless and stupid, but most Irish-Americans I know have a sense of humor about these stereotypes. In my opinion, it's not because Irish-Americans are ignorant, but rather because America has come a long, long way from the days of "no Irish need apply." I should note that I'm speaking solely of the US because I've never spent enough time in Ireland or any other part of the diaspora to generalize about the state affairs elsewhere. People of Irish heritage I've seen in this country aren't terribly troubled by the stereotypes. Many Irish even capitalize off them, from the popularity of the Notre Dame "Fighting Irish" to the success of Irish and Irish-style beer and whiskey and Irish-themed pubs. Good for them. What's more, while most Irish-Americans would acknowledge the stereotypes overblown, we nonetheless realize (dare I say it) there is a reason why these stereotypes have arisen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption). You speak of Irish artists, but how many of these have been guilty of regular overindulgence? How many folks on this very website even?

Of course, alcoholism is a serious affliction, but I believe humor is vital in the healing of any people's collective wounds. Spencer's t-shirts may not be all that funny, but I'd hardly petition someone for being a crappy comedian. My vision of the future of my own democratic republic is not that of a land where everyone is so paralyzed by political correctness that we must walk on eggshells in every public discourse. Instead, I believe that the ultimate sign of progress and inclusivity is for people of diverse backgrounds to be able to joke openly with one another without fear of alienation or reprisal. We've certainly got a long way to go, but as an Irish-American, I'm willing to deal with stupid jokes without flipping out. There are other folks here who are being actively persecuted and denied equal rights. I'd rather defend them than protest t-shirt companies in a time when I can honestly say I've never been denied a job or right of any kind because of my Irish ancestry, nor seen such persecution heaped upon my Irish-American friends and family.

Brendan Hamilton said:

We've certainly got a long way to go, but as an Irish-American, I'm willing to deal with stupid jokes without flipping out.

I agree with much of what you said, Brendan.  I'm definitely not a fan on "flipping out" and political correctness (way too much going overboard on that), and I don't want to be seen as doing that with this.  These t-shirts and the like have been around seemingly forever, and I definitely do not "flip out" about them.  My reaction is typically to just roll my eyes, ignore them, and pity the fool wearing them.

My problem lies with the woeful double standard we see.  Can you imagine if a store or any business started selling shirts that played off some of the stereotypes of African-Americans, Hispanics, Jews, or other groups?  My goodness, would there ever be hell to pay!  Every single news crew on the planet would descend on that company, and they'd be out of business the following day with multiple lawsuits to fight off.  They'd be vilified and receive death threats and, in short, wish they'd never been born.  But hey ... they can make off-colour cracks about the Irish 'til the cows come home, and all they receive is laughs and more revenue.  See the problem?

I'd love to have someone -- ANYONE tell me why it's not okay to do this nonsense with virtually any group except the Irish.  It's the laughable inconsistency and blatant double standard that frustrates me to no end.

A tee logo I found from Cafe Press.  Might have been sensitive about this at one time but I wonder if it comes in green now?

Thankfully exorcism and lobotomy are not the norm anymore

Yeah, I get annoyed with the "flipping out" and oversensitivity too, but these really are offensive.  The fact that it's about alcoholism just takes it to the next level.  No one dies because of fried chicken jokes, but accepting alcohol abuse as a quirky cultural norm kills people here on a regular basis.  I'm not a big petition signer, but I signed this one.  It's not trying to put anyone out of business...just asking that they take a look at what they are promoting and consider changing a few of their products.

Ryan and Kelly, you both make excellent points about the double-standard. The main difference I would point out is that there is still a huge gap in terms of wealth, access to education, treatment by law enforcement, etc., that still exists in the US along race lines, as well as an ongoing, bitterly divided debate about immigration that impacts many Hispanics. I would also argue that antisemitism is still alive and well here. I just haven't personally seen hatred or active discrimination against Irish and Irish-Americans. Doesn't mean it doesn't still happen. And yes, sending a message to businesses asking them to be respectful is certainly far from "flipping out!"

Brendan ... the propagation of the "Irish drunk" is destroying lives.  It is killing people (especially young people) and ripping families apart.  People joking about that and popularising these old, tired stereotypes is no innocent thing.  What you mentioned above with other ethnic groups does not in any way lessen the problem being addressed by the petition.

As Kelly says, off-colour jokes (which shouldn't be told, mind you) about African-Americans enjoying fried chicken or Jewish folks being frugal aren't dangerous to anyone's health.  And yet, businesses like Spencer's Gifts choose to go full-bore on these ridiculous drunken Irish items in a way they wouldn't dream of making fun of these other cultures.  The double standard is abhorrent.

Ryan, if you're saying that t-shirt designs are actually driving alcoholism and/or binge drinking among people of Irish descent, I would love to see your evidence. There are studies that suggest that familial attitudes toward drinking are a ... in Ireland but nothing exploring the impact of the "Drunk-O-Meter." In fact, in Ireland, rates of alcohol consumption have been trending downward. This does not seem to be the case in the US, but I hardly think Spencer's is to blame. Again, f*ck those guys; I'm not defending them--I just don't think they're destroying lives (except maybe the folks in Indonesia who have to make the damn shirts).

Brendan ... have you heard of the latest craze here in Ireland called "Neknomination"?  If not, look it up ... I can tell you that these continuing stereotypes and the glorification of binge drinking is a direct contributor to this huge problem in Ireland.  Just about anyone here would tell you so.  It's talked about on radio and Television in Ireland constantly.

Yeah, I see what you're saying Brendan.  I remember one of my college profs teaching us that, "It isn't racism unless it's against a disenfranchised group."  I just disagree.  Also, I've not seen Irish Americans treated poorly in my lifetime, but people here talk about it happening to their relatives in Australia and the UK.

And you're right...familial attitudes and history are more direct causes of the alcohol abuse than Tshirts, but the embracing of these stereotypes perpetuates the practice.  At some point a generation will have to stand up and say, "ENOUGH."

I was about to sign the petition when I saw the religious reference to god.  Must you drag that nonexistent old coot into every single thing?  You just prove one Irish stereotype.  That Ireland is still a priest ridden society.  Take out the religion, and I'll sign the petition!

Thanks, Gael. For a moment there I feared I might be the most contrarian sob on this comment thread.

Gael ... are you referring to the part toward the end which says "...God’s green world"?  That's fairly benign, really.  It's not as if it's invoking the name of God to bless the petition or anything of that sort.  Don't see anything in there about the Catholic Church or priests.  But hey ... to each his/her own.  Clearly you do not see it as benign.  Fair enough ... you're free to not sign if it bothers you.

Haha, Brendan!

All of you have made excellent points.  I feel that the Irish have become very successful in America, including Canada, Central, and South America.  Statues of Irish Revolutionary heroes adorn the Plazas from Mexico to Bolivia, where we are much admired.  In the U.S. we have thrived. While, encouraging unhealthy drinking is destructive, and associating the sober-sided Irish with this dangerous behavior is insulting, I think that we no longer feel the string of oppression, scorn,  and discrimination  to which  Black people, and more recently immigrated minorities are still subjected.  Really, what slurs do they call us?  Micks?  Why, the names they call us seem more like terms of endearment!  Harps?  Paddys?  Fallen from the common lexicon.  Being white, and the fact that we speak English has accelerated our acceptance into the majority society.  We know of the travails of our immigrant ancestors and we appreciate the wonderful turn-around the Irish have enjoyed here.  It is hard for us to work up a lot of outrage at Spencer's ham-fisted, clumsy stereotype.  We would begin to sound like the U.S. Christians screaming about being oppressed here when secularists try to stop them from establishing a christian theocracy here, like the one that has so handicapped Ireland.  The Irish are not oppressed by these ads and images.  We are just being "dissed" a little.

But what real oppression is there in making cracks about African-Americans eating fried chicken, or Jewish-Americans being extra frugal?  It's certainly in bad taste, but there's no real oppression there.  I would never make those silly cracks myself, but when I hear other people do it they are lambasted to within an inch of their lives!   And if a company like Spencer's Gifts began selling MLK Day t-shirts with fried chicken on them, it would make international news, they'd be sued beyond belief, and they'd be out of business in short order.

So again ... why the glaring double standard?  I still have heard no reasonable explanation of it.

Ryan, you are mistaken about the deep scorn still felt for Black people in the U.S.  It is not just silly watermelon jokes.  It is hatred, and fear. There IS real oppression here! And if you think that the worst thing that the many anti-Semites say about Jews is a mild rebuke about 'frugality', you don't live in the U.S.  Blacks and Jews are commonly despised in the U.S.  The Irish are teased and ribbed a bit.

Gael, I realise it's not just watermelon and fried chicken jokes.  Yes, there is indeed real hatred on the part of some whites for blacks -- just as there is real hatred on the part of some blacks for whites.  I lived in the U.S. for the first 33 years of my life, and I'm well aware of what goes on ... it's not all one direction, no matter how much some people may want us to believe that it is.  I have experienced it myself.

My point, again, is that there is precious little difference between the off-colour stereotypes perpetuated about blacks / Jews / hispanics and the ones told about Irish folks.  And yet, the way those stereotypes are viewed by the masses is starkly different.  I'm not distraught over it, but it's a laughably hypocritical situation.

My point is that in the U.S. the Irish are no longer the underdog.  The jokes have no teeth because they are not born of fear, hatred, or scorn.