Are the Irish Natural Storytellers?

One of the 'Professional' body of writers who reviewed my book ' That's Just How It Was -- said taht I wasa a story teller - not a polished writer .

Do not know whether  to take that as a compliment or not ?? view my video !

Youtube: http://youtu.be/oT0oOa0jx28

A good writer is a word smith with a story to tell. A good story teller is a memory bank with a story to tell. I fall on the story tellers side as I teach stories about our history in school and it is a major advantage to have a good memory to help keep the story straight. Sometimes I will even bring my guitar to class to sing our history to my students, t'is another good way for my students to remember the stories.  Slainte!

 So  with your analysis above -I will take it as a compliment  Sláinte 

Aye, it was meant as such,... and now I am going to tell a story to me son Sean with the assistance of me guitar. Slainte !

How lovely that you can play the guitar as well . Music and story telling the stuff of legends ; what can be more Irish than that .Sláinte 

I hate to disappoint Mr. Toibin, but we do come from an oral culture.  Oral cultures are not necessarily primitive (Homer was the product of an Oral culture, was it primitive?), in fact they usally reflect quit complex social structures.  Oral cultures are built on a level of intimacy that is sadly lacking in our Modern world, it means that generations actually have to take the time to sit down and talk to one another rather than the passing "tweet".  We must all realize that for many years that the ONLY way for Irish history and music to be preserved in the face of a concerted effort at cultural imperialism by te English was the Oral/Aural tradition.

I fully understand Mr Toibin's point; writing is hard work and for someone to trivialize by implying you have some sort of ethnic/DNA advantage is disheartening and not a little bit bigoted (imagine the reaction of someone was to say to an African American "you people are such natural dancers").  However, let us not throw the baby out with the bath water.  We do come from an Oral tradition and it is what makes us who we are and something to be proud of.

Civilizations throughout history have made the mistake of seeing people with less technology as inferior to them. So it would go without much argument that a civilization with a written cultural transfer, would see itself as superior to an oral cultural transfer society. History has shown us that to make that assumption is a major mistake. In the history classes I teach I use the lecture to share facts and music to give historical facts some emotional content. And Mary, my son Sean (11 years old), said that if we didn't have our hour of music and story telling that he would be very sad,.... that is what this Irish Da always wanted to hear.  Slainte ! 

 I know from listening to my grandmother - that she told her grandchildren stories that had been handed down orally to her . However - much as I knew these stories by heart; it was awe inspiring for me when  I was researching the history books  to discover that she had in fact been passing down  history - in a manner that she too had learned 

Music and story telling is by nature a gift that the Irish have ; and to trivialize that [Neil F.Cosgrove] is almost an insult  and shows a deep lack of understanding for 'Writers'  who happen to be Irish .

I spent a very long time researching the historical .documents in Dublin ; going from one department to another to help me understand  and contextualize the stories that  I  had so often heard her speak about.   It took be longer  to put in on paper before I got it to  a stage that it could be published  ,

Being a Social Worker by background - I had some knowledge of the process of writing Court Reports etc- this however did not prepare me for the writing of a book .

I was only to0 happy then - when  Richard R. Mc Gibbon Jr. provided the analysis above of story telling ; As I have said previously ; I did not know whether the Professional Critique of my book ; whereby  ; the Reviewer said that  I was 'more of a story teller rather than a polished writer'. was a compliment or not. Thankfully for me I other experts to tell me that ' being  story teller is alright  . Sláinte 

Mary, just one more item to ponder. I would say that Storytelling is a full Art form; the story, diction, pitch, tempo, vocal emotion built by the story teller as a result of his or her audience and the immediacy of their reaction to the ongoing story.  Writing a story has other components which are important to this medium but never the intimacy of the story teller. The story teller is a living link that connects the past with the future; the writer creates a written link much like the story teller,.... but without the intimacy.  Just me opinion colleen ;-)  Slainte !

Thank you so much for that  Richard - when I read both yours and Neil's analysis of a story teller - it really gladdened my heart . It was my first book ; [on my 2nd now] so it was important for me to have some positivity  However ; one of my sons advised that  'one should never read all the critiques of ones' work' ; because they will be sorely disappointing if they expect rave reviews from every critic . Good advise ;  

Below is the video that I had done to promote my book;;

Youtube: http://youtu.be/oT0oOa0jx28

Mary, nice promo.  Next time we go to the "big city" I will have to go to the book store and find your book. Another analogy that I thought of for story teller to writer; it is much like the stage or pub performer playing the music live, as opposed to making a recording of one's music in a studio for later distribution. Have a grand day colleen with your back to the wind and your eye's on the horizon.  Slainte ! 

Hi Richard ; You will not find my book in any stores ; for reasons only know to Publishers and their elk; I have been told by many ;many stores to get myself an Agent !! I  do not know any Agents . 

That's why it is on Amazon ; barnesandnoble ; inghams ; berthams etc.  

Richard and Neil, I agree with your analysis. I understand Tóibín's point of view. But I do think he is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and, in doing so, belittling a fine Irish tradition of which he should be proud. 

Mary, congratulations on the book. I wish you every success with it and the next one too. Caroline 

Thank you Caroline 

I think people forget that Irish civilization and culture was created in an entirely different language, Irish. Once the daily and professional use of this language was broken, it was attempted to continue the intellectual traditions associated with it in English. Outsiders have no knowledge of this and so attribute certain Irish characteristics to genetics. Though I don't think it is written in our physical DNA I do think certain things are written in the DNA of our inherited culture. If in fact we have been exposed to that culture somehow it has a consequence. Is it in the DNA of the French to be chef's? I doubt it but it is obviously a big part of their culture and so....they do have a lot of chefs. Ultimately, in my opinion anyway, all forms of communication are a form of storytelling so it's just that the Irish have a long, specific tradition of taking special care in what they communicate and how they do it, in other words, yes they work at it. It's just that to others the Irish can make it look easy so they are dismissed as just "natural" storytellers. It's definitely a racist viewpoint as Tóibín pointed out, which is why I personally agree with what he says on one level but as I've said before I just don't think most people of Irish ancestry understand the enormity of what happened with the loss of the language. It affects all of us everyday of our lives and this is an example of that.

Well, said, John!  I enjoyed this article and the conversation that has followed very much.  Here's to the novelists, AND the storytellers AND those who are both! -Kelly

John B Hurley has made a great point ; What most people do not know or remember is that the Irish language ; religion and culture was probated for over 700 years [read my book- That's Just It Was ]. Not least in this sceniro  is the fact that Catholics were not educated . So the only way stories could be passed on was by word of mouth..

 I am really glad to know that 'storytelling' is considered a art by so many of you who have participated in this discussion .

As I have said throughout this discussion ; one critique of my book was that 'I was a storyteller- not a polished writer' - so all of these discussions have been been very positive for me . 

This is my video  --

Youtube: http://youtu.be/oT0oOa0jx28

John, I think you make a great point about the breakup of the language and the reconstruction of the culture in English. In the same CUNY TV series, various writers talk about Hiberno-English. From memory, Roddy Doyle says he writes mainly in Hiberno-English whereas other writers (I can't recall who, possibly Tóibín) almost deny that there is such a thing.

I plan to write another blog on that soon as I'm fascinated by it. Especially because my Colombian husband, who studied the English language as a second language and therefore knows the Grammar rules, is always correcting my English. Recently, I've been studying Hiberno-English as part of research for a novel, to look for words and phrases that my Irish characters would say in English that distinguishes them from the American characters. Through that process, I realised that a lot of what my husband corrects me on is me using Hiberno-English sentence structures and not necessarily speaking the "Queens." 

I am an American with Irish roots and a novelist who wrote a novel about the power of a story. I do believe the Irish are natural born storytellers, but in a good way, a way that has the rest of the world envious. Keep telling your stories, Caroline. Who cares what the critics or English or anyone else thinks. There are plenty of readers out there waiting.

I too have been referred to as a story teller by a critic of my book  - That's Just How It Was . Since this discussion was first aired ; I have now taken heart from the many people who have called 'story -telling' an art 

Caroline (and anyone else) I hope I didn't sound preachy or anything it's just something that I feel like I have to remind *myself* about (even though I'm obviously aware of it) because it does make a difference in how we communicate with others. But it's deceptive because you think you're speaking the same language with other people and then you realize you aren't actually. I attended a Catholic high school where most of the students were African-American or Hispanic and at the time, the theories about Ebonics were out there and I felt you could easily apply that kind of theory to Hiberno-English as well.

My wife is from Belfast but moved to the US at the age 11 and she and her siblings were tortured at school because of their accent which they have since lost. But to this day she will ask me how to phrase things in American English because she's not sure if she's saying something "right". Which is sad of course, but she wants our kids speaking "proper" English because if you don't, you're not taken as seriously. 

You probably know this already but a great resource on Hiberno-English is PW Joyce's "English As We Speak It In Ireland". I was able to use it for my own books, and there was an Irish episode on an old documentary I think it was called "The Story Of English", where they felt that a lot of Hiberno-English was the use of Elizabethan terms and pronunciations with Irish (gaelic) sentence structures. I agree it's a really fascinating subject.

That's a resource I did not know about. I thank you very much for sharing it though!

PS: You're not preachy. :)

 I have read the article - it appears that this man 'Carleton' of whom I know nothing other than what I have read in the above blog by Katarzyna Gmerek - that his allegiance and conversion to evangelical  Protestantism had much to do with what was happening in Ireland in this era.  To gain access to food and other support from the Protestant body's [of which there were many ] there was a of a campaign of proselytism aimed at the Catholic poor for them to renounce their Faith in exchange for food - particular during the Famine years . {thirty pieces of silver spring to mind].

The fact that he did gain a pension of £200 would suggest that his support for a campaign of proselytism aimed at the Catholic poor was just another way for him to  disassociate himself from the poverty and deprivation of his Catholic roots; which would have left him and his family at the mercy of British Establishment.

He was not the only Roman Catholic to abandon their Religious beliefs ; many were swayed with the offers of jobs ; living accommodation /food and cloths . 

For Corcoran, a prominent if scarcely representative Catholic intellectual, the most salient fact about Carleton was his conversion in the 1820s from the Catholicism into which he had been born to evangelical Protestantism. The Bulletin’s editor was not given to moderation of expression, and the fact that Carleton’s early stories and tales had been written in support of a campaign of proselytism aimed at the Catholic poor amounted in his eyes to an intolerable affront. Carleton, he asserted, although of “excellent Catholic and democratic stock”, had “elected the path of the pervert. Miserable indeed, in all its petty malignity and abuse, is the record, set down by himse - See more at: http://www.drb.ie/essays/oral-culture-and-popular-autonomy#sthash.A...

Thanks for that 

Mary I did a lot of research on William Carleton and this was (in part) the result: "Irish Gangs And Stick-Fighting: In The Works Of William Carleton" He was a fascinating guy and really the grandfather of the Irish literary movement. He was raised as an Irish speaker but he and his parents spoke English as well. His father was a Seanachie and his mother a Sean Nos singer which, at the time, were semi-professional but unpaid pursuits. So he was steeped in polished storytelling. He eventually moved to Dublin and really was very, very poor when he agreed to start writing stories about how terrible his Catholic upbringing had been for a Protestant evangelist, Ceasar Otway. (The original exaggerated "Angela's Ashes") Here's the thing: Carleton has some very legitimate critical things to say about the Church and Gaelic Irish culture itself. But at the same time, a lot of it was being done for the money and some of it was also criticizing Protestantism. Once he became successful enough he left Otway and his agenda and eventually all religion, at least publicly. Not that he was an atheist but just walked away from it all. He was the kind of guy who, if you were a Catholic who attacked Protestantism would defend it but then if you were a Protestant who attacked Catholics, he'd defend them with equal passion. He seems to have just liked to argue! The pension he applied for he got because of his status of what we today would call a "national treasure". He was so famous and had sold so many books that people thought it was wrong that he would live in such poverty. Although obviously if he had been anti-government he would not have gotten that.

But he is the perfect example of making that segue between Gaelic oral storytelling and modern English language novel writing, he is the Irish archetype of it. All the past Irish literary greats from Shaw, to Yeats, to Joyce etc., all knew his stories and acknowledged him as the first international "superstar" of modern, native Irish writing. Because of the Hiberno-English in his work and the sectarianism in "Traits And Stories" he has been largely forgotten today. In my book I tried to analyze his stories and sort of translate the slang and Irish language phrases to help understand the stories which, in this case, all had to do with descriptions of Irish faction fights and martial arts. His stories can be a bit like reading "The Canterbury Tales" in the original.