Comments - The Mysterious Provenance of Kylemore’s Battle Flag - The Wild Geese2024-03-29T15:39:28Zhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=6442157%3ABlogPost%3A13059&xn_auth=noFlag as described by Fr Gill …tag:thewildgeese.irish,2020-05-23:6442157:Comment:2469572020-05-23T01:52:56.947ZNollaig 2016https://thewildgeese.irish/profile/BelindaEvangelista
<p>Flag as described by Fr Gill <a href="https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168070683/20370127" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168070683/20370127</a> ( I wonder if the Jesuits have the lantern slides? ) using elements from</p>
<div><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lion_passant_guardant.svg" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lion_passant_guardant.svg</a> …</div>
<p>Flag as described by Fr Gill <a href="https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168070683/20370127" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168070683/20370127</a> ( I wonder if the Jesuits have the lantern slides? ) using elements from</p>
<div><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lion_passant_guardant.svg" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lion_passant_guardant.svg</a> </div>
<div><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Erin_Go_Bragh_Banner.svg" target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Erin_Go_Bragh_Banner.svg</a> </div>
<div>Remnants described here<br/><div><div> <a href="https://archive.org/details/TheIrishDamesOfYpres/page/n293/mode/2up" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://archive.org/details/TheIrishDamesOfYpres/page/n293/mode/2up</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>The royal standard of England was, when it was hoisted on the Tower on the 1st of January 1801, thus heraldically described:—“Quarterly; first and fourth, gules, three lions passant gardant, in pale, or, for England; second, or, a lion rampant, gules, within a double tressure flory counter flory of the last, for Scotland; third, azure, a harp or, stringed argent, for Ireland.” The present standard connects in direct descent from the arms of the Conqueror. These were two leopards passant on a red field, and remained the same until the reign of Henry II., when lions were substituted for leopards, and a third added. The next change that took place was in the reign of Edward III. when the royal arms were for the first time quartered; fleurs-de-lis in the first and fourth quarters, and the three lions of England in the second and third.(from wikipedia)</div>
<div>Scotland's political union with England as the Kingdom of Great Britain came into force on 1 May 1707. The English and Scottish parliaments were replaced by a combined Parliament of Great Britain, The Battle of Ramillies fought on 23 May 1706, before the Union. Does that explain the plain yellow field on the flag or was the Scottish lion rampant present? </div>
<div><a href="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/5263917254?profile=original" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><img src="https://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/5263917254?profile=RESIZE_710x" class="align-center"/></a></div> Hi Joe, usually the flags are…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-13:6442157:Comment:212822013-05-13T10:41:23.115ZTomás Ó Brógáinhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/TomasOBrogain452
<p>Hi Joe, usually the flags are made of Silk, it is sized (primed) and then the image is painted on with oil paint. The silk deteriorates as does the color of the silk, what is left is a very thin silk and paint skin. The paint also losses some of the pigment and becomes less vivid due to UV and age. It is exactly what you would expect to see. From the background of image it is evident it was blue the harp is yellow and probably defined with burnt umber. This would be a very delicate…</p>
<p>Hi Joe, usually the flags are made of Silk, it is sized (primed) and then the image is painted on with oil paint. The silk deteriorates as does the color of the silk, what is left is a very thin silk and paint skin. The paint also losses some of the pigment and becomes less vivid due to UV and age. It is exactly what you would expect to see. From the background of image it is evident it was blue the harp is yellow and probably defined with burnt umber. This would be a very delicate fragment, like the Dillon flag the horizontal or vertical threads of the weave may have rotted away completely and now become see through almost, the only thing stabilizing it being the paint. remember this is an organic item as is the paint and is susceptible to natures ravages. but also the image is of poor quality so it is difficult to know. Does anyone know where it is kept? Regards Tomás</p> Another aspect of this harp t…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-13:6442157:Comment:215012013-05-13T02:06:49.145ZJoe Gannonhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/JoeGannon
<p>Another aspect of this harp that has bothered me since first seeing this remnant of the flag is how much more distinct it is than the rest of the flag. The rest of the flag is substantially faded, but there is incredible detail left on this harp. I am suspicious that it was added some time much later than the original flag was produced. </p>
<p>Another aspect of this harp that has bothered me since first seeing this remnant of the flag is how much more distinct it is than the rest of the flag. The rest of the flag is substantially faded, but there is incredible detail left on this harp. I am suspicious that it was added some time much later than the original flag was produced. </p> Tomas, I urge you as time all…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-11:6442157:Comment:212552013-05-11T18:56:11.776ZGerry Reganhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/ger_regan
<p>Tomas, I urge you as time allows to put these thoughts together, along with this splendid though slightly underexposed action shot, in an article in WG, using your personal blog provided here. Then we are more likely to get them the attention they deserve.</p>
<p>Tomas, I urge you as time allows to put these thoughts together, along with this splendid though slightly underexposed action shot, in an article in WG, using your personal blog provided here. Then we are more likely to get them the attention they deserve.</p> Here's a nice expression of w…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-11:6442157:Comment:210912013-05-11T18:44:56.451ZTomás Ó Brógáinhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/TomasOBrogain452
<p>Here's a nice expression of what it is to be Irish and our connection with our past: We remember, even if not in the correct historic context we still remember in a social context, for those who have given in trying to prevent what is being taken away. It is said that the Irish have a long memory but the problem with England was if had a short memory.....</p>
<p><i>The names of the nation’s heroes are written in the hearts of its people.</i></p>
<p><i>For them there may be no dim aisles of…</i></p>
<p>Here's a nice expression of what it is to be Irish and our connection with our past: We remember, even if not in the correct historic context we still remember in a social context, for those who have given in trying to prevent what is being taken away. It is said that the Irish have a long memory but the problem with England was if had a short memory.....</p>
<p><i>The names of the nation’s heroes are written in the hearts of its people.</i></p>
<p><i>For them there may be no dim aisles of the Cathedral,</i></p>
<p><i>no records in the public libraries,no statues in the street;</i></p>
<p><i>but their memories are cherished none the less,</i></p>
<p><i>lovingly in the traditions of the country-side,</i></p>
<p><i>the legends of the chimney corner, above all, in the ballad poetry.</i></p>
<p><i>Of a people like the Irish, whose popular favorites have found themselves almost invariably opposed to the dominant power <br/></i></p>
<p><i>by Sarsfield: A Jacobite Rapparee. Dixon, Frederick, Temple bar : with which is incorporated<br/>Bentley's miscellany, Jan. 1882-May 1898; May 1891; 92, British Periodicals pg. 30</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>Is iad na buachallí seo, buachallí Gaelacha,</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>(These lads, are Irish lads)</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>Ag briseadh a gcroí ag siúl na sléibhte,</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>(Broken hearted (or despondent) they wonder the Mountains (wilderness))</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>Ag amharc amach at chuantaí na hÉireann</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>(Reflecting on the state, throughout the regions of Ireland)</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>Is ag sileadh na súl ag siúl gan Séamus,</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>(With a tear in their eyes lamenting for James II)</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>Is uch! Uchón!</i></p>
<p align="center"><i>(Oh this woe!)<a href="#_ftn1" title=""><b>[1]</b></a></i></p>
<div><br clear="all"/><hr size="1" width="33%" align="left"/><div><p><a href="#_ftnref1" title="">[1]</a> <sup>Ó Ciardha, É., <i>Ireland and the Jacobite Cause, 1685-1788: A Fatal Attachment</i> (FCP, Dublin, 2004),</sup> <sup>P81</sup></p>
</div>
</div> Okay I could and would help a…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-11:6442157:Comment:213132013-05-11T17:55:19.202ZTomás Ó Brógáinhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/TomasOBrogain452
<p>Okay I could and would help as much as I can, I am working on Rappareesim as we speak for my dissertation, an interesting subject. These guys were like the Viet Cong of the Williamite war. irregular, motivated and living off the land. They tied down up to 10,000 Williamite troops during the war and immobilized their logistics train until huge troop numbers were pumped into Ireland to blanket the territory. Ignored by the Jacobite hierarchy at first, the young commanders (such as Sarsfield…</p>
<p>Okay I could and would help as much as I can, I am working on Rappareesim as we speak for my dissertation, an interesting subject. These guys were like the Viet Cong of the Williamite war. irregular, motivated and living off the land. They tied down up to 10,000 Williamite troops during the war and immobilized their logistics train until huge troop numbers were pumped into Ireland to blanket the territory. Ignored by the Jacobite hierarchy at first, the young commanders (such as Sarsfield and his retinue) all wanted to commission them into the army as scouts, skirmishers and a ready supply of combat hardened men. They would hold small posts thus freeing up conventional troops for conventional operations holding the Shannon line. These roving bands when under their control, were detailed to hit the soft under belly of the Williamite logistic infrastructure and other targets of opportunity. This did not happen until post Battle of the Boyne on the advice of the the French cadre who saw the use of irregulars. But when they did engage the Danish troops for example the Danes refused to leave their garrisons without adequate protection, some posts were left isolated and eventually deserted. But it was also one of the most brutal oppressions in British Irish history with the Williamite's killing whole villages as Rapparees, these estimate are up to 100,000 from 1688-1692, population in Ireland being 1.5million at the time, in comparison with modern American this would equate to 15% of the population. Nothing of real substance has been written on this, the Irish and French texts are all but ignored and most of the narrative written is based on British accounts how balanced is this could be one could question. I would think the number could be on the high side, so I would think the numbers would be more in the region of 40,000, Old people, Women and Children were the key targets, being first hanged and then spiked on all towns gates, make no mistake like all colonists this was a huge land grab nothing more with war being used as a convenient pretext, mainly perpetrated by the Protestant settler militias in Ulster such as the Tiffan's later the Iniskillings to name one. Thus the Rapparee revenge was savage for the unwary sentinel or forager, limbs crushed, blinded, maimed, skinned and mutilated or disembowelment while alive. Like the Afghans it is rumored this was done by the women, I would believe this as rape was systemic, as in many other societies especially with religious connotations. It is possible that many of the bodies dating from the 17th century found in bogs are from these incidents also. Groups to consider starting are the Irish in Spanish service Early modern period, which is a under explored narrative as are the Marine units given to the US in 1775 who manned the America frigates raiding off the west coast of Ireland, during the war for Independence I would like to learn on this if anyone knows anything about it. Anyway on 13th July in Aughrim County Galway, we are holding a conference called the Colonel Charles O'Kelly military summer school we will have lecturers from many of the university's and other faculties exploring the rich military heritage we have. Anyone in Ireland in July are welcome to come along. We will be there this year interpreting Lally's tragic adventure to India in 1756. Anyway sorry about the rushed nature of the reply and the really bad spelling and grammar LOL... Tomás image below is us in Zaragoza Spain doing O'Mahoney's Regiement.</p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/57438695?profile=original"><img width="750" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/57438695?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="750"/></a></p> Tomas, perhaps you might galv…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-11:6442157:Comment:212482013-05-11T16:30:05.678ZGerry Reganhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/ger_regan
<p>Tomas, perhaps you might galvanize fellow members support around a <a href="http://thenewwildgeese.com/groups" target="_self">group</a> within WG focused on Irish Military History. It's a fascinating, rich, far-reaching topic, and you clearly have both passion and expertise on this.</p>
<p>Tomas, perhaps you might galvanize fellow members support around a <a href="http://thenewwildgeese.com/groups" target="_self">group</a> within WG focused on Irish Military History. It's a fascinating, rich, far-reaching topic, and you clearly have both passion and expertise on this.</p> There is so much that we all…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-10:6442157:Comment:211262013-05-10T22:32:56.932ZTomás Ó Brógáinhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/TomasOBrogain452
<p>There is so much that we all don't yet know and it is through the sharing of ideas and knowledge that we as a community can strengthen the Irish military pluralism. I hope this did help and has not caused offence, but I felt it prudent to speak. But please feel free to PM me anytime, so if I can help in anyway drop me a line. Regards Tomás.</p>
<p>There is so much that we all don't yet know and it is through the sharing of ideas and knowledge that we as a community can strengthen the Irish military pluralism. I hope this did help and has not caused offence, but I felt it prudent to speak. But please feel free to PM me anytime, so if I can help in anyway drop me a line. Regards Tomás.</p> Tomás, yes, thank you. I hope…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-10:6442157:Comment:209992013-05-10T22:18:46.709ZGerry Reganhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/ger_regan
<p><span>Tomás, yes, thank you. I hope we can get you to share more of these insights in the weeks and months ahead. You have much to offer. Ger</span></p>
<p><span>Tomás, yes, thank you. I hope we can get you to share more of these insights in the weeks and months ahead. You have much to offer. Ger</span></p> Go raibh mil maith agat, Tomá…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-05-10:6442157:Comment:211232013-05-10T19:35:48.578ZBit Devinehttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/BitDevine
<p>Go raibh mil maith agat, Tomás. Very thorough breakdown, mo chara. I appreciate that.</p>
<p>Go raibh mil maith agat, Tomás. Very thorough breakdown, mo chara. I appreciate that.</p>