The Life and Execution of a 'Black and Tan' - The Wild Geese2024-03-29T07:34:23Zhttps://thewildgeese.irish/forum/topics/the-life-and-execution-of-a-black-and-tan?commentId=6442157%3AComment%3A25459&feed=yes&xn_auth=noMe mother told me story of ho…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2015-08-11:6442157:Comment:1676142015-08-11T14:57:34.101ZThomas j sheahttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/Thomasjshea
Me mother told me story of how her fathers home was burnt down by a black n tan crew down in cork, however, what the black n tans didn't realize was there was two little baby up in the thatch, they were burnt alive.....one survived n the other didnt....one of those babies would have been my2nd cousin, they were staying up with my grandma and grandpa since their home was previously burnt down n not by a tan man but an English lord, a greedy English lord, or what people might say today a "Irish…
Me mother told me story of how her fathers home was burnt down by a black n tan crew down in cork, however, what the black n tans didn't realize was there was two little baby up in the thatch, they were burnt alive.....one survived n the other didnt....one of those babies would have been my2nd cousin, they were staying up with my grandma and grandpa since their home was previously burnt down n not by a tan man but an English lord, a greedy English lord, or what people might say today a "Irish Protestant" since he was living in Eire, even though there is no such thing, there is only one irish race n they just so happen to be catholic.just like there is no such thing as scotch-Irish, what because they the Scottish were given land in the north of Eire by the English n the crown? Lol I haven't heard the term befo…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-21:6442157:Comment:273512013-06-21T17:46:01.814ZDJ Kellyhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/DJKelly
<p>I haven't heard the term before Cait, though no doubt Jim will explain. I'm guessing it's one of the all enveloping garments worn by Muslim ladies. Sounds like the 'dish dash' of Egypt or the bernoose (not sure of spelling) in North Africa. In Pakistan, when I lived there, the ultra devout women would wear the burkha (a long black coat with matching veil) in public. The heavy veil which covers the head, face and shoulders was called a chudder (sometimes spelled chadha or chaddar).</p>
<p>I haven't heard the term before Cait, though no doubt Jim will explain. I'm guessing it's one of the all enveloping garments worn by Muslim ladies. Sounds like the 'dish dash' of Egypt or the bernoose (not sure of spelling) in North Africa. In Pakistan, when I lived there, the ultra devout women would wear the burkha (a long black coat with matching veil) in public. The heavy veil which covers the head, face and shoulders was called a chudder (sometimes spelled chadha or chaddar).</p> the Kenyans fought hard for d…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-21:6442157:Comment:270582013-06-21T12:28:30.125Zcait ni cadlaighttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/caitnicadlaig
<p>the Kenyans fought hard for donkeys years to get the little they got It may not be completely settled yet either!</p>
<p>the Kenyans fought hard for donkeys years to get the little they got It may not be completely settled yet either!</p> what is a dashikis??tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-21:6442157:Comment:273412013-06-21T12:25:52.946Zcait ni cadlaighttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/caitnicadlaig
<p>what is a dashikis??</p>
<p>what is a dashikis??</p> Unfortunately for all concern…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-19:6442157:Comment:267872013-06-19T06:54:42.431ZDJ Kellyhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/DJKelly
<p>Unfortunately for all concerned, there were no jobs at home for anyone, since this was the depression era. The effects and dangers of PTSD were unknown then. I would love to know of any cases of Tans found guilty of murder and pardoned. One Tan killed a priest and a young boy, allegedly whilst suffering from delerium tremens, and who was found guilty but insane and sent to a lunatic asylum. My research shows all the other Tans tried for murder were acquitted. The ADRICS or Auxiliaries were…</p>
<p>Unfortunately for all concerned, there were no jobs at home for anyone, since this was the depression era. The effects and dangers of PTSD were unknown then. I would love to know of any cases of Tans found guilty of murder and pardoned. One Tan killed a priest and a young boy, allegedly whilst suffering from delerium tremens, and who was found guilty but insane and sent to a lunatic asylum. My research shows all the other Tans tried for murder were acquitted. The ADRICS or Auxiliaries were next sent to Palestine to repeat their particular brand of 'intelligence' work there.</p> Thanks for the post. Actually…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-18:6442157:Comment:267822013-06-18T21:42:40.311ZJohn W. Hurleyhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/JohnWHurley
<p>Thanks for the post. Actually, his brothers were members of the Sinn Fein Police and the Tan would have been tried and sentenced to death by the Sinn Fein Courts. As these were the legitimate courts at the time (the people having boycotted the British courts), they were not "taking the law into their own hands" but obeying the order of the court. The story was in no way meant to be "sinister" I'm very surprised to hear you call it that. It was meant to demonstrate that at that time, in…</p>
<p>Thanks for the post. Actually, his brothers were members of the Sinn Fein Police and the Tan would have been tried and sentenced to death by the Sinn Fein Courts. As these were the legitimate courts at the time (the people having boycotted the British courts), they were not "taking the law into their own hands" but obeying the order of the court. The story was in no way meant to be "sinister" I'm very surprised to hear you call it that. It was meant to demonstrate that at that time, in Ireland, if a government law enforcement officer raped a woman he received the death penalty which, in my opinion, was a good thing, not bad.</p>
<p>As for the <span>dubious claims made about the Tans I meant those being made by their modern day supporters (like Kevin Myers) who claim that they were heroes fighting terrorists. What a joke. The RIC (and then ADRIC members) was a political, paramilitary police force living in barracks and armed with carbines and grenades, a fascist gendarmerie which was a precursor to the Gestapo. With so many WWI veterans in their ranks one has to wonder how many of them had serious mental problems. If they were not criminals at home, they certainly became criminals in Ireland and you have to wonder if it was really a post-war economy that attracted them to the work or was it that they were too mentally disturbed to be hired for jobs at home. They sometimes shot people working the fields for "fun"; another time (in Kerry) they tied a man to the back fender of a car and drove the car until he was ripped to shreds and killed. These are clearly the actions psychopaths who are the dregs of society and not those with orders to restore the peace. On another note besides the many murders they committed there are documented accounts of British Army officers refusing to work with them, saving civilian and IRA prisoners from execution by them and of course, Black and Tans found guilty of murder by their own government who were then pardoned and released only to rejoin their ADRIC units.</span></p>
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<p></p> That's a sinister story, John…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-18:6442157:Comment:267722013-06-18T16:34:04.701ZDJ Kellyhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/DJKelly
<p>That's a sinister story, John, and most likely true. In those times, folks took the law into their own hands. You're right that a lot of dubious claims are made about the 'Tans'. </p>
<p>The Anglo-Irish historian Brian Inglis claimed they were 'the sweepings of the English gaols' and so did my Grandmother. They were both wrong. This has become a popular myth but there is no evidence to suggest the 'Tans' included a greater criminal element than any other police force before or…</p>
<p>That's a sinister story, John, and most likely true. In those times, folks took the law into their own hands. You're right that a lot of dubious claims are made about the 'Tans'. </p>
<p>The Anglo-Irish historian Brian Inglis claimed they were 'the sweepings of the English gaols' and so did my Grandmother. They were both wrong. This has become a popular myth but there is no evidence to suggest the 'Tans' included a greater criminal element than any other police force before or since.</p>
<p>All the men recruited as temporary constables for the RIC were ex-servicemen; ex-combatants from The Great War; men who were blooded and battle-hardened. By 1919, the British government had several major problems. Firstly, there were thousands of demobilised soldiers unable to find work on their arrival back in the 'land fit for heroes'. Secondly, the troubles (the Irish War of Independence) had broken out in Ireland, resulting in the death of around 400 RIC constables and the resignation of a further 500 (out of fear or conscience).</p>
<p>It made sense to recruit temporary constables from amongst the demobilised servicemen, since they had recent fighting skills. The British government had no need to use criminals to do the job, and that would not have solved the problem of what to do with desperate, unemployed ex-soldiers. If they'd been left to roam the streets, they'd have become criminals fairly quickly anyway.</p>
<p>Amongst those thousands of ex-servicemen were significant numbers of Irishmen. Many had elected to be demobbed in the UK, rather than Ireland, as they held (vain) hopes of finding work there. The 'Black & Tan' recruitment records at TNA (Kew) reveal (according to several historians, including Bennett and Leeson) that 25% of the 'Tans' were Irish-born, and a further 5% or so were of Irish descent. All the temporary constables found themselves confined to barracks 24/7 and were bored, so they took to drink and got into mischief and much petty crime, pretty much as happens in any garrison town. </p>
<p>1,900 demobilised officers were also recruited to join the RIC, ostensibly to act as an officer cadre to the temporary constables (and were deemed the Auxiliaries). But whilst the temporary constables were posted to all RIC barracks to bolster the ranks of the regular constables in upholding the law, by contrast, the Auxiliaries formed themselves into 'hit squads' and became a law unto themselves. Contemporaneous eye witness accounts suggest it was the Auxiliaries who carried out the worst of the atrocities. They sacked and burned towns and cities such as Balbriggan and Cork, and even murdered the mayor of Cork.</p>
<p>24 Republicans would be executed during the Irish War of Independence but, by June 1921, no 'Tan' (constable or Auxiliary) had been executed for murder, even though several of them had been tried and acquitted (usually when the prosecution witnesses disappeared). The world's press were condemning the actions of the British Administration in Ireland; the Americans and heads of nations around the empire were protesting at Britain's lack of even handedness and even King George V voiced his discontent at the behaviour of the 'Tans'. </p>
<p>Then, in the quiet market town of Dunlavin, Co Wicklow, a magistrate is murdered during the course of a bungled robbery at his home. A Scots-born 'Tan' commits suicide in the local barracks and one of his 'Tan' colleagues, an Irishman, is arrested as his accomplice, providing the British Administration with the perfect 'fall guy'. Dubliner William Mitchell was court martialed, without benefit of jury or right of appeal, in April 1921 and went to the gallows 92 years ago this month, on 7 June 1921, still protesting his innocence. Did he do it? Should he have hanged? In my novel ['Running with Crows'], which is closely based on the life and death of Mitchell, I present all the evidence and invite the readers to judge for themselves. </p>
<p> </p> When I was a kid my granduncl…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-17:6442157:Comment:264712013-06-17T16:33:15.032ZJohn W. Hurleyhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/JohnWHurley
<p>When I was a kid my granduncle used to tell us a story about a Black and Tan. My granduncle was too young to have participated in the War of Independence, he was just a young kid, be he witnessed a lot. He claimed that one night his older brothers took away a Tan who had been kidnapped by the IRA for "attacking a woman". They came back later, no Tan, so while he never said the words "they executed him", when I asked him where he was his reply was "He's there still." I don't know if it's 100%…</p>
<p>When I was a kid my granduncle used to tell us a story about a Black and Tan. My granduncle was too young to have participated in the War of Independence, he was just a young kid, be he witnessed a lot. He claimed that one night his older brothers took away a Tan who had been kidnapped by the IRA for "attacking a woman". They came back later, no Tan, so while he never said the words "they executed him", when I asked him where he was his reply was "He's there still." I don't know if it's 100% true or not that my granduncle was lying, he had no cause to do that but for example maybe he was an Auxilliary, a British soldier or a Z Special from an area away from their village that my granduncle wouldn't have known (but who to him, as a child, was a "Tan"). I have not made an exhaustive study of them, but there seems to be a lot of strange, undocumented claims made about the Tans, especially by people today, who think they were heroes.</p> Thanks for your kind comments…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-14:6442157:Comment:262362013-06-14T13:53:32.874ZKieron Punchhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/KieronPunch
<p>Thanks for your kind comments. I am looking forward to reading your new book.</p>
<p>Thanks for your kind comments. I am looking forward to reading your new book.</p> Thanks Ger. My family has had…tag:thewildgeese.irish,2013-06-14:6442157:Comment:263092013-06-14T13:52:24.975ZKieron Punchhttps://thewildgeese.irish/profile/KieronPunch
<p>Thanks Ger. My family has had connections with the newspaper industry/profession through several generations, going as far back as the 1820s. The last connection ended only a few years ago when one of my cousins retired as manager of the Limerick Leader.</p>
<p>Thanks Ger. My family has had connections with the newspaper industry/profession through several generations, going as far back as the 1820s. The last connection ended only a few years ago when one of my cousins retired as manager of the Limerick Leader.</p>